Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6621117" data-attributes="member: 5834">The thread count argument is never a good one, especially when it is often the same people arguing over the issue. I don't think arguments are occurring due to the lack of clarity of the stealth rules. The issue is the usual problem of how stealth interacts with other abilities, specifically Cunning Action and the Halfing/Wood elf ability to hide in fairly common conditions. Hiding as a bonus action is an extremely powerful ability. It allows the rogue to do good damage while remaining out of harm's way. This often drives DM's nuts. Anytime a class can insulate themselves from harm while defeating an enemy, encounter creation becomes more difficult. When this happens, arguments will occur at the table as the tactic is employed repeatedly making encounters trivial. The invisible flying wizard drives DMs nuts. You can only justify countering them on occasion.When I first read the entirety of Stealth, Cunning Action, and abilities that allow a player to basically Hide Kite someone, as a DM I was thinking, "This is way over-powered. I have to stop this." After doing more reading on the game and seeing how powerful everyone else was, I decided this is the rogue's power. He can move around like a stealthy assassin killing things that never see him. If I took that away from the rogue, then I would have to take away things like Action Surge and GWM from the fighter. I would  basically have to take away from the other classes things that make them seemingly "over-powered". In the end, I would spend  more time policing every class for over-powered combinations than having fun. There are a lot of combinations in this game that might be considered insanely powerful compared to what the opposition can do. So I let it go.The rogue's ability to Hide kite is a feature of the class, not an issue to argue about. It's the class's power combat combination. You should be as liberal with it as you feel you can stomach without destroying the fun of your game whether it be verisimilitude or game balance. I think once people accept that the rogue can Hide Kite with a fair amount of ease in this edition, they will slow down the arguing. The DM and the players can discuss how they want to handle situational absurdities like hiding behind the same creature over and over again or around the same corner. It won't hurt the game either way. Rogue sneak attack doesn't do so much damage that it overshadows what other martials can do. They focused the assassin abilities on surprise, which can only happen at the start of combat. If the rogue spends time Hide Kiting someone in the right environment, the DM needs to have the target run. They're not going to win.It creates certain ideas in the minds of enemies. You don't screw with Wood Elves in natural environments. You don't want to fight a Halfling rogue in a crowd or big battle. You definitely don't want to fight a rogue in places where he has lots of cover options or obscurement. It's all a bad idea. I'm ok with it at this point. Rogue's are sneaky bastards that get to kill people while avoiding you hitting them. DMs need to learn to live with the idea that a rogue is boing to be bouncing around the combat field hiding and smacking the target with Advantage. The poor bastard enemy is going to die trying to keep track of him while the raging barbarian, smiting paladin, or action surging fighter is in his face. Rogue's are one of the most dangerous classes in 5E. They are the martial equivalent of the invisible wizard in the right circumstances. I like that 5E pulled off a martial that can be effectively invisible throughout a combat with sufficient cover gaining all the advantages of doing so. No other version of D&D has pulled that off without ki or magic. Now we have the stealth assassin dancing about the room hiding behind corners, boxes, rocks, trees, etc, popping out and hitting the target while he goes, "Where in the Nine Hells did that SOB go. Another bolt in the neck. Dammit."That is why I think stealth is creating arguments. Many DMs hate the idea of the "invisible" rogue that can attack without being seen on a near constant basis using a mundane skill. It's driving them nuts. Once they see it in action, it causes them to go to the boards to find support from others that feel the same way. The Cunning Action: Hide rogue sneak attacking from range is the martial equivalent of the flying invisible wizard. And DMs and other players that feel it is too powerful hate it. I can see both sides of the argument. But the side that likes seeing a martial with an amazingly powerful ability equivalent to the invisible caster enjoys it. The 5E designers pulled off giving the rogue an ability I only thought a caster or ki user would ever have using a mundane method that fits conceptually and mechanically. Kudos to the 5E design team.</blockquote>

Verification