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Things through all the playtests I have not liked
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<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6117040" data-attributes="member: 1465"><p>Yeah, that would be the only scenario that deserves some rule, but I have <em>never</em> seen a rule handling it properly. Why? Perhaps because in a game where combat is conceived to be mobile and dynamic, a rule for "dagger at your throat" just doesn't fit.</p><p></p><p>We have to keep in mind that the rule would be applied both to a PC using it, and an enemy using it against a PC, and also to a NPC doing it against another PC (in the "do what I say or I kill this innocent" scenario). Thus the designers are compelled to avoid a save-or-die situation that players will hate when CdG is used against them or against an innocent, and this current "double action" solution is there exactly to provide enough time to the PC to avoid the death of the threatened character, but then when they switch side and want to use CdG against an enemy it makes it look like the rule is a failure because it takes too long... The bottom line is that players want a CdG rule that works if they use it but doesn't work if it's used against them <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Other uses of CdG beyond the "dagger at your throat" are not that important IMHO, except the assassination scenario of course, but once again players would <em>totally</em> hate a rule that allows an assassin to kill one of the PC with a save-or-die, while at the same time they would consider the rule useless if it doesn't have a good success chance when they use it against an enemy.</p><p></p><p>What is bad IMO is that CdG is normally allowed during combat, to be used to quickly kill someone who is rendered helpless by another effect such as a Sleep spell, or a paralyzation effect. This use of CdG turns a save-or-suck into a save-or-die. It's broken when used by the PC, "broken" in the sense that it can easily spoil an encounter's challenge, and the same players will loudly complain when the DM starts using the same tactic against the PCs. </p><p></p><p>Hence my preference for CdG not being in the game at all... but now that I think about it some more, I realize that what I really want is CdG not being <em>in combat</em>, while we can definitely have a CdG rule for out-of-combat scenarios. Of course the "dagger at throat" case can still occur <em>during combat</em>, but somehow I feel that it might help not to use the normal combat rules framework even in that case.</p><p></p><p>Alternatively, I suggested a few weeks ago that save-or-suck spells like Sleep and Hold Person could work so that they are immediately dispelled as soon as someone attacks those affected. The reason for my suggestion was related to another problem, that of those spells being too good (effectively save-or-die) at very low levels and being forced to have a level limit after which they stop working. Anyway, at least if these spells worked like that, CdG would be already less frequently effective during combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 6117040, member: 1465"] Yeah, that would be the only scenario that deserves some rule, but I have [I]never[/I] seen a rule handling it properly. Why? Perhaps because in a game where combat is conceived to be mobile and dynamic, a rule for "dagger at your throat" just doesn't fit. We have to keep in mind that the rule would be applied both to a PC using it, and an enemy using it against a PC, and also to a NPC doing it against another PC (in the "do what I say or I kill this innocent" scenario). Thus the designers are compelled to avoid a save-or-die situation that players will hate when CdG is used against them or against an innocent, and this current "double action" solution is there exactly to provide enough time to the PC to avoid the death of the threatened character, but then when they switch side and want to use CdG against an enemy it makes it look like the rule is a failure because it takes too long... The bottom line is that players want a CdG rule that works if they use it but doesn't work if it's used against them ;) Other uses of CdG beyond the "dagger at your throat" are not that important IMHO, except the assassination scenario of course, but once again players would [I]totally[/I] hate a rule that allows an assassin to kill one of the PC with a save-or-die, while at the same time they would consider the rule useless if it doesn't have a good success chance when they use it against an enemy. What is bad IMO is that CdG is normally allowed during combat, to be used to quickly kill someone who is rendered helpless by another effect such as a Sleep spell, or a paralyzation effect. This use of CdG turns a save-or-suck into a save-or-die. It's broken when used by the PC, "broken" in the sense that it can easily spoil an encounter's challenge, and the same players will loudly complain when the DM starts using the same tactic against the PCs. Hence my preference for CdG not being in the game at all... but now that I think about it some more, I realize that what I really want is CdG not being [I]in combat[/I], while we can definitely have a CdG rule for out-of-combat scenarios. Of course the "dagger at throat" case can still occur [I]during combat[/I], but somehow I feel that it might help not to use the normal combat rules framework even in that case. Alternatively, I suggested a few weeks ago that save-or-suck spells like Sleep and Hold Person could work so that they are immediately dispelled as soon as someone attacks those affected. The reason for my suggestion was related to another problem, that of those spells being too good (effectively save-or-die) at very low levels and being forced to have a level limit after which they stop working. Anyway, at least if these spells worked like that, CdG would be already less frequently effective during combat. [/QUOTE]
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