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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 8993670" data-attributes="member: 6801252">Yeah, my own group does make them somewhat compatible but there is some friction (mainly between the desire for instrumental play and the desire for purely expressive play) the main thing about compatibility is the degree to which the activities interfere with each other. My players still experience surprise and novelty but its derived more from the things their characters are put up against or have the opportunity to learn about, so its more of a vibe of seeing their characters be themselves in new places and situations. Meanwhile they experience the challenge of the game and the play of the game, but it mainly just limits their sense of what their viable expressive choices are somewhat, makes us prefer very balanced systems (where concepts are close enough in power to justify in an instrumental play environment), and makes them keep any intraparty and extraparty conflicts temporally separate (e.g. the argument we have at the campfire about our differing sense of ethics doesn't bleed into whether or not I heal you, or whether or not I'm a part of a fight.) One other technique I've seen used to great effect is best exemplified by ye olde Princess build concept, where the character is mechanically very competent, but the flavor plays it off as shenanigans, dumb luck, or even the skill of their allies. Consider as a character option the <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=123" target="_blank">Unexpected Sharpshooter</a> which outright suggests existing in a state of mechanical competence, but fictional incompetence-- it seems to me that it bridges the gap you're discussing between expressive and skillful play, and that it could be performed without a specific option. Similarly, skillful play situations can simply influence the tone of the expression-- if players like to play the game as a game and want to preserve challenging situations, they need only accept the need to express themselves as competent people. The key here is that players can make active choices in their expression, if they're invested in certain other aspects of the game, in order to accomodate them-- though in the arguably neotrad spaces around 5e, this is a frequent point where problem players may rear their ugly heads, hearing that a game is combat heavy and then contrarily expressing a pacifist character.</blockquote>

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