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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 9214996" data-attributes="member: 6801252">Whats with the aggrievement regarding other people not agreeing with the stance you want to take? Is it really so intolerable that 'most games are only fun because of improv rp so they miss their own point' isn't something you're agreed with on? Or that other people feel you're engaged in an activity that isn't really germane to the topic?In what way does the:Necessitate a a pronouncement of taste, and in what way can examining these elements and structure lead us to an assertion that a game is unfun? At what point is the 'fun' factor of a game actually decided in this examination? What objective criteria for 'fun' exists beyond perhaps observing people having it? In other words, why is this idea something fit for the consumption of others in an intellectual way, specifically, how can it be engaged with by them in a meaningful way?One is a [a statement of what the game does] while the others are [a statement of their intertextuality]? Because I think you'd be hard-pressed to suggest that 5e at least wasn't designed with the same tactics game DNA as Pathfinder (though Pathfinder executes it better, in my eyes), and arguably basic (and therefore OSE) was as well, given that it was initially defined as type of wargame, though it does so in a fairly different way. The loop of all the of the above games generally involves overcoming obstacles via the tactical application of character abilities, gaining resources used to progress, and then doing it again while stronger, over which a layer of narrative theming is applied which beyond the texture presented by their simulative mechanics (what a fireball, for instance does), is utterly flexible (as discussed earlier in the thread, you could have a game where the character sit around and chat and drink and that's it, or a game that's just fighting in encounters, and less controversially, a format where the characters spend an awful lot of time drinking and chatting in taverns, but also go spelunking for more drinking money.)I'm not sure how productive it would be to deny it, but no, my frustration is more regarding the rude dismissal of the previous twenty-something pages of thread and the wonderful insights and arguments contained therein, and the content of my responses to you pertain to the substance of that dismissal, rejecting the proposed process of simplification that hinges on these acts of pronouncement masquerading as analysis.</blockquote>

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