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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 6346624" data-attributes="member: 2525">OK, enough.  Now you're outright lying about what I said.  Which is why I said please stop cutting the context from my post when replying to it, so people can see what you are responding to.  I listed 5 items, and 2 of those 5 were not "public"  I said their closed playtest was much more limited in both scope and timeframe, they did not hire a larger staff of outside consultants.  Neither is public, and my statement is correct.  In hindsight the designers have admitted to a series of things which, while not known at the time, are now known to be the case - IE that they did not do as much market research as they should have done, and those are two of several things they think they should have done.As for the remainder of the list, they did NOT do those things on the list either.  For 4e, WOTC did no large open playtest, they did not engage in a large amount of open surveys, and they did not engage customers as much on social media.  That's all true (and the last of those items was not done privately either).  No, I said it's more likely to get you a better read on the marketplace than not doing those things.  Are you arguing different?And again, we know about major, meaningful differences between the methods used to gather that data, and we know the data they've gathered this time is much greater in quantity than it was before (by orders of magnitude).  That's meaningful.  It's not a 100% certainty, but doing that increases the accuracy odds.  It's not though, and you have yet to make any argument that supports that view. You have to actually show that the major differences between the two methods are meaningless, to make that claim.  You have not done so, and in fact have engaged in routine straw-manning and outright lying about my position when responding rather than using this opportunity to provide even a shred of support for your position.  And that hasty generalization is itself facile and meaningless.  I'm critical of plenty of aspects of 5e, and I was a fan of 4e as well.  It's really easy to just dismiss someone as a hater or fanboy, than it is to deal with the positions they actually hold.And now I am sure you will cut most of the context from my post, mischaracterize it, and respond with another strawman.</blockquote>

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