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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5992498" data-attributes="member: 87792">Lovely.&nbsp; Just what this thread needed.&nbsp; Someone trying to redefine things so all editions except 4e are Dungeons and Dragons.&nbsp;The power level of a first level adventurer with respect to an orc hasn't changed much from 3e to 4e.&nbsp; And it actually takes orcs longer to kill PCs in AD&amp;D than it does in 4e (one minute combat rounds).&nbsp; Unless we're talking about BECMI or pre-UA 1e fighters or, arguably, AD&amp;D thieves, a first level PC is already a huge cut above the norm.&nbsp; &nbsp;And in 4e PCs die - often as much as in earlier editions. A first level PC has a hard time against a battletested orc warrior just as a first level PC in earlier editions does against an ordinary orc warrior - and it takes longer for an orc to kill a first level wizard in AD&amp;D (one minute) than it does to kill a fully armoured fighter in 4e (5 rounds or so or about 30 seconds).&nbsp; It doesn't matter which D&amp;D you play - first level and you are wet behind the ears.&nbsp;The real difference in heroics isn't as you describe it.&nbsp; Most NPCs are near non-combatants by RAW (0th level in AD&amp;D, commoners in 3.X, and Minions in 4e).&nbsp; A first level fighter in AD&amp;D with weapon specialisation and heavy armour can chew through a lot of them.&nbsp; A first level cleric with Sleep in 1e or worse with two uses of Phantom Forces in 2e is seriously powerful, and the 3 spell 3e version is almost as bad and can repeat and then cast a pile of cantrips.&nbsp; It's that 4e PCs (other than in Eberron) live in a crapsack world, whether the Nentir Vale/PoLand, Athas, the post Spellplague Realms, or wherever.&nbsp; There is no Elminster, no Mordaniken, no Drizzt.&nbsp; No one to shelter behind or who will play backstop if this gets out of hand.&nbsp; The 4e worldbuilding with its Points of Light is set up so PCs try to be heroes not because they are more powerful than the surrounding world (that has always been true).&nbsp; They are called to be heroes because there is no one else to do the job.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5992498, member: 87792"] Lovely. Just what this thread needed. Someone trying to redefine things so all editions [I]except [/I]4e are Dungeons and Dragons. The power level of a first level adventurer with respect to an orc hasn't changed much from 3e to 4e. And it actually takes orcs longer to kill PCs in AD&D than it does in 4e (one minute combat rounds). Unless we're talking about BECMI or pre-UA 1e fighters or, arguably, AD&D thieves, a first level PC is already a huge cut above the norm. And in 4e PCs die - often as much as in earlier editions. A first level PC has a hard time against a battletested orc warrior just as a first level PC in earlier editions does against an ordinary orc warrior - and it takes longer for an orc to kill a first level [I]wizard[/I] in AD&D (one minute) than it does to kill a fully armoured fighter in 4e (5 rounds or so or about 30 seconds). It doesn't matter which D&D you play - first level and you are wet behind the ears. The real difference in heroics isn't as you describe it. Most NPCs are near non-combatants by RAW (0th level in AD&D, commoners in 3.X, and Minions in 4e). A first level fighter in AD&D with weapon specialisation and heavy armour can chew through a lot of them. A first level cleric with Sleep in 1e or worse with two uses of Phantom Forces in 2e is seriously powerful, and the 3 spell 3e version is almost as bad and can repeat and then cast a pile of cantrips. It's that 4e PCs (other than in Eberron) live in a crapsack world, whether the Nentir Vale/PoLand, Athas, the post Spellplague Realms, or wherever. There is no Elminster, no Mordaniken, no Drizzt. No one to shelter behind or who will play backstop if this gets out of hand. The 4e worldbuilding with its Points of Light is set up so PCs try to be heroes not because they are more powerful than the surrounding world (that has always been true). They are called to be heroes [I]because there is no one else to do the job.[/I] [/QUOTE]

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