Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
This mentality needs to die
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5088563" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>I don't have a problem with the ruling, per se, but I do have a problem with the <strong>reason</strong> for the ruling ("Well, the rules say 1 creature, and the door isn't a creature, so no"). </p><p></p><p>The main problem I see is one that 4e actually has pretty deep down: <em>naming conventions</em> and <em>flavor</em>. </p><p></p><p>If the Darkfire was not called "darkfire," it wouldn't give the impression of being, you know, fire. The player was mislead by a name that didn't match what the power actually did. Maybe if was called "Elfshine," or "Assassin's Halo" or something.</p><p></p><p>Or, if Darkfire had evocative flavor text that described the phenomenom (which seems more like the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo's_fire" target="_blank">St. Elmo's Fire</a> kind of fire than the literal fire kind of fire), then a player who read the effect would know that it was a heatless kind of flame, more of a light than an actual fire. </p><p></p><p>Or, even if Darkfire had a reason why only creatures can be targeted ("conjures the light of a living soul to the surface" or something), the reason for the ruling would make sense.</p><p></p><p>Using a fiddly bit of rules language to deny the player is weak. It kind of inspires the "Oh no, I have to pay very close attention to every little word on my card" phenomena. Which is fun for D&D gearheads, sure, but not usually so fun for newbies and casual players. </p><p></p><p>If this were my game, I can see one of two things happening, depending on how charitable I'm feeling:</p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> "Actually, Darkfire is more of an illumination, kind of a flickering halo that makes enemies in the darkness more visible. It's not a literal fire. Bad name. But if, say, you meet some enemies skulking around in the shadows, Darkfire will help you see them and hit them better." (Explaining the term a little better, giving an example of where you might want to use it; it's not the player's fault the power has a lousy name and unhelpful flavor text). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> "Well, it's fire, right? But it doesn't do any damage or anything, so the heat it generates is pretty low. It would be kind of like trying to melt ice with your breath. Slow going. You could probably chip it off with your sword faster." (Yes, but..., combined with a suggestion for solving the problem the player is trying to solve; and now the player knows that they can use elfshine to keep themselves warm!)</li> </ol><p></p><p>I'm not sure this is so much an example of "Statistically Speaking"/videogame think as it is a case of rules/flavor/text mismatch. Player understandably thinks the power does something it doesn't do. Either give the power that ability, or explain it more clearly than the rules have, don't appeal to the rules as if it was the player's fault. Hacking at the ice should totally work (jaws of the wolf!). THAT is more videogame than the Darkfire thing. ("Oh, I can only hack at things that are creatures? I can't choose to attack other things?") Though I did like how he eventually just gave the player the answer to his little bottleneck, so it didn't quite turn into a game of "Guess What The DM Is Thinking." He kept it rolling OK, but the fact that there was a bottleneck to begin with is a little rough. </p><p></p><p>But, honestly, I saw a lot of things in that little video that made me question a lot of the underlying assumptions of D&D as a game, seeing the reactions of the new players to the stuff going on. Lots of math. "STOP MOVING AND ROLL" for a low DC. It certainly solidified my stance against minis, for one. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Some good stuff, too. The turning fire-trap is good, and the specific mention of hitting the drums is a subtle tactical recomendation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5088563, member: 2067"] I don't have a problem with the ruling, per se, but I do have a problem with the [B]reason[/B] for the ruling ("Well, the rules say 1 creature, and the door isn't a creature, so no"). The main problem I see is one that 4e actually has pretty deep down: [I]naming conventions[/I] and [I]flavor[/I]. If the Darkfire was not called "darkfire," it wouldn't give the impression of being, you know, fire. The player was mislead by a name that didn't match what the power actually did. Maybe if was called "Elfshine," or "Assassin's Halo" or something. Or, if Darkfire had evocative flavor text that described the phenomenom (which seems more like the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo's_fire"]St. Elmo's Fire[/URL] kind of fire than the literal fire kind of fire), then a player who read the effect would know that it was a heatless kind of flame, more of a light than an actual fire. Or, even if Darkfire had a reason why only creatures can be targeted ("conjures the light of a living soul to the surface" or something), the reason for the ruling would make sense. Using a fiddly bit of rules language to deny the player is weak. It kind of inspires the "Oh no, I have to pay very close attention to every little word on my card" phenomena. Which is fun for D&D gearheads, sure, but not usually so fun for newbies and casual players. If this were my game, I can see one of two things happening, depending on how charitable I'm feeling: [LIST=1] [*] "Actually, Darkfire is more of an illumination, kind of a flickering halo that makes enemies in the darkness more visible. It's not a literal fire. Bad name. But if, say, you meet some enemies skulking around in the shadows, Darkfire will help you see them and hit them better." (Explaining the term a little better, giving an example of where you might want to use it; it's not the player's fault the power has a lousy name and unhelpful flavor text). [*] "Well, it's fire, right? But it doesn't do any damage or anything, so the heat it generates is pretty low. It would be kind of like trying to melt ice with your breath. Slow going. You could probably chip it off with your sword faster." (Yes, but..., combined with a suggestion for solving the problem the player is trying to solve; and now the player knows that they can use elfshine to keep themselves warm!) [/LIST] I'm not sure this is so much an example of "Statistically Speaking"/videogame think as it is a case of rules/flavor/text mismatch. Player understandably thinks the power does something it doesn't do. Either give the power that ability, or explain it more clearly than the rules have, don't appeal to the rules as if it was the player's fault. Hacking at the ice should totally work (jaws of the wolf!). THAT is more videogame than the Darkfire thing. ("Oh, I can only hack at things that are creatures? I can't choose to attack other things?") Though I did like how he eventually just gave the player the answer to his little bottleneck, so it didn't quite turn into a game of "Guess What The DM Is Thinking." He kept it rolling OK, but the fact that there was a bottleneck to begin with is a little rough. But, honestly, I saw a lot of things in that little video that made me question a lot of the underlying assumptions of D&D as a game, seeing the reactions of the new players to the stuff going on. Lots of math. "STOP MOVING AND ROLL" for a low DC. It certainly solidified my stance against minis, for one. ;) Some good stuff, too. The turning fire-trap is good, and the specific mention of hitting the drums is a subtle tactical recomendation. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
This mentality needs to die
Top