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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5101729" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>HeroQuest has no skill lists. PCs consist of descriptions, with numbers attached. Conflict resolution difficulty is set by the GM based on considerations of dramatic pacing. There are rules for making challenges more difficult for a PC whose skill descriptons are broad relative to the other PCs - this is (i) to maintain balance between PCs, and (ii) to encourage rich detail rather than generic blandness in PC descriptions.</p><p></p><p>So, to give some examples taken from <a href="http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14603.phtml" target="_blank">a review on RPGnet</a>:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A player can pitch his skill Hard to Kill against a fast advancing Massive Garbage Truck.</li> </ul><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Or Burn Lies can be pitched against the Shrewd Tactics of a villain in an interrogation.</li> </ul><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Practical Joker can be used against a serious Summoning of Otherworldly Horror.</li> </ul><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Always having the last Word can mock the authority of a Stone Cold Mafia Boss.</li> </ul><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">See through Walls can be used to look inside Unbreakable Safe.</li> </ul><p></p><p>In the last example, if another PC has Expert Safecracker as an ability, then See through Walls (which is more generic in relation to the safe challenge) would suffer a penalty. And in the summoning example, if the GM took the view that using practical joking to defeat a summoning is a bit of a stretch, a penalty would also apply.</p><p></p><p>This isn't "mother-may-I", but it's not "rules" either, in quite the way that D&D, or Runequest, or Traveller, or Rolemaster, or Ars Magica, or Hero, or etc is.</p><p></p><p>Spelling out how it differs from mother-may-I is not trivial. But one important difference is that, by giving a PC an ability like "practical joker", the player has already stipulated that <em>in this game</em> some challenges can be overcome by practical joking. The GM does not have sole authority over what counts as a possible happening in the gameworld. Thus the resolution of conflicts does not depend entirely on "mother-may-I".</p><p></p><p>The design of 4e <a href="http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10945654" target="_blank">is not as elegant as this</a>, but the inclusion of broad skills on the skill list, plus p 42 of the DMG which sets the range of DCs by level for actions that are possible in the gameworkd, also goes some way to reducing the degree of "mother-may-I".</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think that they were expressly influenced by the sort of indie design that Heroquest exemplifies. I think this because at the time <a href="http://critical-hits.com/2008/03/05/dd-xp-interview-sara-girard-rob-heinsoo/" target="_blank">Heinsoo said as much</a>. This approach - avoiding the "tediousness" of fantasy simulation - is precisely the sort of modern approach to RPGs that I was referring to.</p><p></p><p>I don't really see these as modern approaches to design. They are at least as old as Rolemaster, which is to say close to 30 years old (ie when D&D was itself less than 10 years old).</p><p></p><p>That said, 4e does have a system for non-combat degrees of success, but rather than linked to invidual skill checks it is linked to the number of failures accumulated over the course of a skill challenge, or the number of successes accumulated before reaching 3 failures (as per the DMG2 and some of the examples therein). This is also an appraoch which draws on the indie RPG ideas exemplified by HeroQuest.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5101729, member: 42582"] HeroQuest has no skill lists. PCs consist of descriptions, with numbers attached. Conflict resolution difficulty is set by the GM based on considerations of dramatic pacing. There are rules for making challenges more difficult for a PC whose skill descriptons are broad relative to the other PCs - this is (i) to maintain balance between PCs, and (ii) to encourage rich detail rather than generic blandness in PC descriptions. So, to give some examples taken from [url="http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14603.phtml"]a review on RPGnet[/url]: [list]A player can pitch his skill Hard to Kill against a fast advancing Massive Garbage Truck.[/list] [list]Or Burn Lies can be pitched against the Shrewd Tactics of a villain in an interrogation.[/list] [list]Practical Joker can be used against a serious Summoning of Otherworldly Horror.[/list] [list]Always having the last Word can mock the authority of a Stone Cold Mafia Boss.[/list] [list]See through Walls can be used to look inside Unbreakable Safe.[/list] In the last example, if another PC has Expert Safecracker as an ability, then See through Walls (which is more generic in relation to the safe challenge) would suffer a penalty. And in the summoning example, if the GM took the view that using practical joking to defeat a summoning is a bit of a stretch, a penalty would also apply. This isn't "mother-may-I", but it's not "rules" either, in quite the way that D&D, or Runequest, or Traveller, or Rolemaster, or Ars Magica, or Hero, or etc is. Spelling out how it differs from mother-may-I is not trivial. But one important difference is that, by giving a PC an ability like "practical joker", the player has already stipulated that [I]in this game[/I] some challenges can be overcome by practical joking. The GM does not have sole authority over what counts as a possible happening in the gameworld. Thus the resolution of conflicts does not depend entirely on "mother-may-I". The design of 4e [url="http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10945654"]is not as elegant as this[/url], but the inclusion of broad skills on the skill list, plus p 42 of the DMG which sets the range of DCs by level for actions that are possible in the gameworkd, also goes some way to reducing the degree of "mother-may-I". I think that they were expressly influenced by the sort of indie design that Heroquest exemplifies. I think this because at the time [url="http://critical-hits.com/2008/03/05/dd-xp-interview-sara-girard-rob-heinsoo/"]Heinsoo said as much[/url]. This approach - avoiding the "tediousness" of fantasy simulation - is precisely the sort of modern approach to RPGs that I was referring to. I don't really see these as modern approaches to design. They are at least as old as Rolemaster, which is to say close to 30 years old (ie when D&D was itself less than 10 years old). That said, 4e does have a system for non-combat degrees of success, but rather than linked to invidual skill checks it is linked to the number of failures accumulated over the course of a skill challenge, or the number of successes accumulated before reaching 3 failures (as per the DMG2 and some of the examples therein). This is also an appraoch which draws on the indie RPG ideas exemplified by HeroQuest. [/QUOTE]
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