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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ScottS" data-source="post: 5108609" data-attributes="member: 75465">Like I said, I was sort of familiar with the way the mechanic worked. What I was looking for information to help pin down this supposed "modern trend" a bit further. I'm assuming it's possible that there are a bunch of non-rulesy-rules systems out there that I just haven't seen (the only "new" games I've played in the last 5 years have been RM, D&D4e, M&M, and oWoD VtM, or at least that's all I can recall; I do check out rules-lite pdf's and other free releases, though). On the other hand, it's also possible that calling what they did to the non-combat portions of 4e "modern design" might just be a figleaf... So, if anyone could answer the following questions, I think it would help the conversation: a) What are other RPGs/systems that use mechanics similar to the "mother may I" skill checks in 4e? What systems did the designers say were direct influences? (The RH interview that pemerton posted wasn't particularly helpful, since he didn't drop names, just said something at the end about "only indie games can get away with what we did". I checked <a href="http://http://wizards.com/DnD/Print.aspx?x=dnd/4spot/20090313" target="_blank">another interview</a> ,and he mentions Heroquest, Everway, Feng Shui, and Over the Edge, as well as Runequest and Champions which obviously aren't good examples... Heroquest was discussed above. Everway seems close (loosely defined traits plus tarot deck interpretation). Feng Shui has some sort of 'shtick' mechanic which I don't know the details about. Over the Edge looks like a standard trait+skill system with some form of 'hero points'. ...So are those three/four games what we're calling the "modern trend"? Is it even a trend if RPGs continue to not go in that direction, as RH admits?) b) If 4e was supposed to be an indie/modern showcase, why did it end up in its weird hybrid final form, i.e. flimsy/non-existent out-of-combat rules, super-glued onto the back of a relatively uber-crunch minis combat system? Doesn't devoting so much page-count to the part of the game that they didn't "modernize", kind of negate whatever trendsetting they're trying to do with the "indie" parts? Sub-systems unification isn't "modern"?  (Just as a side note, skill challenges don't count as a degree-of-success mechanic. They're still pass/fail... They don't even count as a "group skill check" in most cases, because the players are invited to BS their way into using non-relevant skills in the test. They wind up being something close to a "everybody-use-their-best-skills-and-make-up-a-narrative-to-justify-it" check and as a result don't test anything specific about the characters. Kinda like an "average level check" to defeat the encounter's "SR"...)</blockquote>

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