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Those who come from earlier editions, why are you okay with 5E healing (or are you)?
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<blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 7883888" data-attributes="member: 6932123"><p>Sorry, long post.</p><p></p><p>For the record, I'm fine with 5E's way of handling healing. I disagree with [USER=70533]@Big J Money[/USER]'s objections, though, mostly due to the issue of <em>framing</em>.</p><p></p><p>I consider HP to be plot armor, in that it has only circumstantial relation to actual physical damage. To put it in more concrete terms: Swords are sharp (as we're reminded with many katana cutting test videos), and flesh is soft, and you never actually want the two to meet. Same with hammers and watermelons. My barbarian with (currently) ~200 HP has exactly the same physical body as he did at 1st level when he had only 15 HP. Swords will remove arms, and hammers will crush heads, just as easily now as then.</p><p></p><p>So, the fact that my barbarian's physical body hasn't changed, and that a single sword cut should be deadly to him, implies that that single sword cut should be just as deadly now that he has 200 HP as back when he was fresh off the turnip truck. Thus HP cannot in any way represent actual physical damage, else he'd be a shambling pile of meat chunks by the time he's down in single digits due to all the deadly damage that represents.</p><p></p><p>However, some don't like the abstract nature of HP, and want that HP to "mean" something. Jumping off a cliff and walking it off as only some minor HP loss doesn't sit well. Being speared by a trap and never having it account for more than a minor graze (once players are high level enough) is annoying. There's the feeling that there is no real sense of danger because HP comes and goes without any non-abstract risks attached.</p><p></p><p>The issue of recovering all your HP overnight is related to that, but is not actually the same thing. If dropping from 200 HP to 2 HP has no notable impact on the character, then whether I can recover overnight with a rest, recover overnight with several charges of a Cure Light Wounds wand, or recover over the course of 6 months at 1 HP a day, the only thing that impacts is the pacing of the game and management of resources.</p><p></p><p>By and large, people prefer fast paced games over slow ones, and most people do not enjoy resource management. (I actually enjoy resource management, but I'm also acutely aware that I'm in a very small minority.) So faster healing with less fiddly hassles will almost always be a better experience for the people playing, with respect to the pacing and management axes.</p><p></p><p>But many people don't like it because it's "not realistic", or other similar reasonings. But it's not the issue of recovering HP quickly that's the actual problem; it's the fact that the abstract nature of HP <em>takes away</em> from the excitement of the gameplay. That's where gritty realism rules and such come into play. The problem is that they're not actually solving the problem, they're just reducing the impact of the simple abstraction of HP so that it feels like something is being done. It's a "theatrical" solution, like security theater, where you make people think you're doing something about the problem without actually doing anything about the problem.</p><p></p><p>In order to work through what's needed, we first need to go back and understand what HP <em>is</em>. While many people in the thread have provided interesting and creative explanations for what HP represents in-universe, out-of-universe it represents one thing: the ability of the players to engage in longer and more dramatic combat scenes.</p><p></p><p>With 200 HP, I can fight my way through dozens of swordsmen, or weather the fiery breath of a dragon. With 15 HP, I'd generally be dead in a single round. Further, the HP suggests where I stand in the fight. With more HP, I can be in the middle of everything blowing up. If I were a wizard with half as much HP, I'd be staying on the edges, trying to avoid being noticed.</p><p></p><p>Now, stop at that point for a moment. Realistically, there is very little difference in the amount of damage it takes to kill a wizard, compared to my barbarian. A sword through the heart will kill both just as dead. But my barbarian can survive vastly greater numbers of hits via the HP mechanic.</p><p></p><p>What HP is, then, is the opportunity to engage in direct dramatic combat, with the degree to which you can do so being directly correlated with the type of character you are expected to play. The drama a wizard brings to the game is casting spells, so his direct combat opportunity is reduced. The drama the melee fighters bring to the table is directly dependent their exchanges of blows, so they have more HP to increase their dramatic opportunity.</p><p></p><p>So HP is the <em>opportunity</em> for dramatic flair via combat. However its abstraction also limits its <em>execution</em> of the dramatic. The sprained ankle; the bum leg; the lost fingers; the arrow to the knee; etc.</p><p></p><p>Going back to the original question: healing all your HP overnight is resetting your character's options. It's saying, you have the opportunity to do something dramatic <em>today</em>, too. Every single day offers you the chance to do something amazing. And that's wonderful.</p><p></p><p>The problem is that it doesn't provide you with the means to give a commensurate level of <em>risk</em>. Even if injuries only last a single day, and are healed automatically overnight, they are still an important component of the <em>drama</em> of today's events. If you go with gritty realism, you're not improving the drama; you're just taking away the opportunities for being awesome. But without <em>some</em> risk mechanic, your moment of awesome is rather flavorless. By default, the only risk mechanic the game provides is death. The system needs more nuance.</p><p></p><p>Lingering injuries (from the DMG) do not provide the appropriate level of balance for that. They may provide a sort of character development or change, but they do not work on the same scale of abstraction as HP.</p><p></p><p>Most of what I see in discussions about HP, that people seem to want, is for HP to represent something actually physical, rather than just 'opportunity for combat'. This is suggested from the common understanding of HP to be correlated to a person's health, and where running out of hit points results in death. The issue is that people need some sort of mechanic to adjudicate and apply this increased risk, and there's not much in the core rules that seems to apply. Thus there are lots of little house rules that try to provide some way to express this desire.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've had ideas of my own, obviously. I'll put together another idea here, based on what I've written above. (Note: Largely written on the fly, with no guarantee of appropriate balance.)</p><p></p><p>When you take damage (treat multiple attacks separately) greater than (Con modifier + Level/2 + Hit Die size), make a Con save against a DC equal to half the damage done (minimum DC of 10) [same as a Concentration save]. If you fail the check, you take a minor injury.</p><p></p><p>You cannot have more than two minor injuries at the same time. (IE: Ignore any further minor injury checks if you already have two.) You heal one minor injury (your choice) per long rest.</p><p></p><p>Example minor injuries:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sprained ankle. -10 to speed, and disadvantage on athletics and acrobatics skill checks.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rung Your Bell (headache). Disadvantage on Intelligence skill checks and Concentration checks. Requires an extra 2 hours of rest for a long rest.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bruised Hand. -1d4 to attacks made with offhand and two-handed weapons.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Arrow to the Shoulder. Carry capacity reduced. Disadvantage on Strength checks to push, pull, or lift objects. Cannot use an offhand weapon or bow.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Black Eye. That shiner is pretty noticeable. Disadvantage on perception checks and Charisma skill checks.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Whiplash. Difficulty moving your head makes fine control difficult. Disadvantage on Dexterity skill checks, and -1d4 to attacks made with dex-based weapons.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gut shot. A strike to your gut makes it difficult to move your body with any agility. You can't apply Dexterity to your armor class.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cramps. Muscle overuse caused them to cramp up, and the pain is making you short-tempered. Disadvantage on Wisdom skill checks and Concentration checks.</li> </ul><p></p><p>And feel free to make up others appropriate to the attack that caused the injury. </p><p></p><p>No minor injury is permanent; it only affects things for the current day (or maybe the next day, if you get a second). It works on the same dramatic scale as HP. It's similar to the exhaustion mechanic, but less broad in the penalties, and no risk that it can directly kill you.</p><p></p><p>It's a way of saying that physical damage is actually a thing, but largely divorced from HP, because HP is not your real body. At the same time, it works on a daily scale, like HP does, and can be caused by things outside of combat.</p><p></p><p>Some minor injuries might not inconvenience certain characters at all, while others will be much more frustrating. The injury should be selected to be thematic, rather than specifically to hurt the character. If the barbarian gets his bell rung, he'll just power through it; he's not worried about intelligence skill checks. Same for a wizard that took an arrow to the shoulder. It's fine that the injury may not directly penalize them; it's more about the drama that they <em>kept fighting</em> despite this setback, and that the flavor of the setback can be incorporated into play.</p><p></p><p>I would also consider this to provide the opportunity for more nuanced combat than simple "Victory or death!" It's a reasonable way to get an opponent to back off, similar to first blood duels, rather than simply run through all of an abstract number until the only available risk — death — shows up.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So those are my thoughts on how to deal with the HP abstraction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kinematics, post: 7883888, member: 6932123"] Sorry, long post. For the record, I'm fine with 5E's way of handling healing. I disagree with [USER=70533]@Big J Money[/USER]'s objections, though, mostly due to the issue of [i]framing[/i]. I consider HP to be plot armor, in that it has only circumstantial relation to actual physical damage. To put it in more concrete terms: Swords are sharp (as we're reminded with many katana cutting test videos), and flesh is soft, and you never actually want the two to meet. Same with hammers and watermelons. My barbarian with (currently) ~200 HP has exactly the same physical body as he did at 1st level when he had only 15 HP. Swords will remove arms, and hammers will crush heads, just as easily now as then. So, the fact that my barbarian's physical body hasn't changed, and that a single sword cut should be deadly to him, implies that that single sword cut should be just as deadly now that he has 200 HP as back when he was fresh off the turnip truck. Thus HP cannot in any way represent actual physical damage, else he'd be a shambling pile of meat chunks by the time he's down in single digits due to all the deadly damage that represents. However, some don't like the abstract nature of HP, and want that HP to "mean" something. Jumping off a cliff and walking it off as only some minor HP loss doesn't sit well. Being speared by a trap and never having it account for more than a minor graze (once players are high level enough) is annoying. There's the feeling that there is no real sense of danger because HP comes and goes without any non-abstract risks attached. The issue of recovering all your HP overnight is related to that, but is not actually the same thing. If dropping from 200 HP to 2 HP has no notable impact on the character, then whether I can recover overnight with a rest, recover overnight with several charges of a Cure Light Wounds wand, or recover over the course of 6 months at 1 HP a day, the only thing that impacts is the pacing of the game and management of resources. By and large, people prefer fast paced games over slow ones, and most people do not enjoy resource management. (I actually enjoy resource management, but I'm also acutely aware that I'm in a very small minority.) So faster healing with less fiddly hassles will almost always be a better experience for the people playing, with respect to the pacing and management axes. But many people don't like it because it's "not realistic", or other similar reasonings. But it's not the issue of recovering HP quickly that's the actual problem; it's the fact that the abstract nature of HP [i]takes away[/i] from the excitement of the gameplay. That's where gritty realism rules and such come into play. The problem is that they're not actually solving the problem, they're just reducing the impact of the simple abstraction of HP so that it feels like something is being done. It's a "theatrical" solution, like security theater, where you make people think you're doing something about the problem without actually doing anything about the problem. In order to work through what's needed, we first need to go back and understand what HP [i]is[/i]. While many people in the thread have provided interesting and creative explanations for what HP represents in-universe, out-of-universe it represents one thing: the ability of the players to engage in longer and more dramatic combat scenes. With 200 HP, I can fight my way through dozens of swordsmen, or weather the fiery breath of a dragon. With 15 HP, I'd generally be dead in a single round. Further, the HP suggests where I stand in the fight. With more HP, I can be in the middle of everything blowing up. If I were a wizard with half as much HP, I'd be staying on the edges, trying to avoid being noticed. Now, stop at that point for a moment. Realistically, there is very little difference in the amount of damage it takes to kill a wizard, compared to my barbarian. A sword through the heart will kill both just as dead. But my barbarian can survive vastly greater numbers of hits via the HP mechanic. What HP is, then, is the opportunity to engage in direct dramatic combat, with the degree to which you can do so being directly correlated with the type of character you are expected to play. The drama a wizard brings to the game is casting spells, so his direct combat opportunity is reduced. The drama the melee fighters bring to the table is directly dependent their exchanges of blows, so they have more HP to increase their dramatic opportunity. So HP is the [i]opportunity[/i] for dramatic flair via combat. However its abstraction also limits its [i]execution[/i] of the dramatic. The sprained ankle; the bum leg; the lost fingers; the arrow to the knee; etc. Going back to the original question: healing all your HP overnight is resetting your character's options. It's saying, you have the opportunity to do something dramatic [i]today[/i], too. Every single day offers you the chance to do something amazing. And that's wonderful. The problem is that it doesn't provide you with the means to give a commensurate level of [i]risk[/i]. Even if injuries only last a single day, and are healed automatically overnight, they are still an important component of the [i]drama[/i] of today's events. If you go with gritty realism, you're not improving the drama; you're just taking away the opportunities for being awesome. But without [i]some[/i] risk mechanic, your moment of awesome is rather flavorless. By default, the only risk mechanic the game provides is death. The system needs more nuance. Lingering injuries (from the DMG) do not provide the appropriate level of balance for that. They may provide a sort of character development or change, but they do not work on the same scale of abstraction as HP. Most of what I see in discussions about HP, that people seem to want, is for HP to represent something actually physical, rather than just 'opportunity for combat'. This is suggested from the common understanding of HP to be correlated to a person's health, and where running out of hit points results in death. The issue is that people need some sort of mechanic to adjudicate and apply this increased risk, and there's not much in the core rules that seems to apply. Thus there are lots of little house rules that try to provide some way to express this desire. I've had ideas of my own, obviously. I'll put together another idea here, based on what I've written above. (Note: Largely written on the fly, with no guarantee of appropriate balance.) When you take damage (treat multiple attacks separately) greater than (Con modifier + Level/2 + Hit Die size), make a Con save against a DC equal to half the damage done (minimum DC of 10) [same as a Concentration save]. If you fail the check, you take a minor injury. You cannot have more than two minor injuries at the same time. (IE: Ignore any further minor injury checks if you already have two.) You heal one minor injury (your choice) per long rest. Example minor injuries: [list] [*]Sprained ankle. -10 to speed, and disadvantage on athletics and acrobatics skill checks. [*]Rung Your Bell (headache). Disadvantage on Intelligence skill checks and Concentration checks. Requires an extra 2 hours of rest for a long rest. [*]Bruised Hand. -1d4 to attacks made with offhand and two-handed weapons. [*]Arrow to the Shoulder. Carry capacity reduced. Disadvantage on Strength checks to push, pull, or lift objects. Cannot use an offhand weapon or bow. [*]Black Eye. That shiner is pretty noticeable. Disadvantage on perception checks and Charisma skill checks. [*]Whiplash. Difficulty moving your head makes fine control difficult. Disadvantage on Dexterity skill checks, and -1d4 to attacks made with dex-based weapons. [*]Gut shot. A strike to your gut makes it difficult to move your body with any agility. You can't apply Dexterity to your armor class. [*]Cramps. Muscle overuse caused them to cramp up, and the pain is making you short-tempered. Disadvantage on Wisdom skill checks and Concentration checks. [/list] And feel free to make up others appropriate to the attack that caused the injury. No minor injury is permanent; it only affects things for the current day (or maybe the next day, if you get a second). It works on the same dramatic scale as HP. It's similar to the exhaustion mechanic, but less broad in the penalties, and no risk that it can directly kill you. It's a way of saying that physical damage is actually a thing, but largely divorced from HP, because HP is not your real body. At the same time, it works on a daily scale, like HP does, and can be caused by things outside of combat. Some minor injuries might not inconvenience certain characters at all, while others will be much more frustrating. The injury should be selected to be thematic, rather than specifically to hurt the character. If the barbarian gets his bell rung, he'll just power through it; he's not worried about intelligence skill checks. Same for a wizard that took an arrow to the shoulder. It's fine that the injury may not directly penalize them; it's more about the drama that they [i]kept fighting[/i] despite this setback, and that the flavor of the setback can be incorporated into play. I would also consider this to provide the opportunity for more nuanced combat than simple "Victory or death!" It's a reasonable way to get an opponent to back off, similar to first blood duels, rather than simply run through all of an abstract number until the only available risk — death — shows up. So those are my thoughts on how to deal with the HP abstraction. [/QUOTE]
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Those who come from earlier editions, why are you okay with 5E healing (or are you)?
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