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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6858439">I'm sorry, but what the diddily is the point of having rules if the DM is just going to say "Well those don't count right now!"  I get 5E is a "rulings not rules" edition but that doesn't mean blatantly ignoring the rules when they should be applied just because you don't want to!  I mean, I played with a DM like that.  Me, followed by the entire table, quit after a few sessions.  I get wanting to tell a story or do a special thing, but if I'm bound by the rules, then the DM is also bound by the rules.  The DM may have the right to ignore the rules, but they don't get to ignore the rules on whimsy and expect the table to just suck eggs.  That's horrible DMing.  If I'm DMing and my player says" "Hey wait, when your monster does his thing that means I get to do my thing!" I'm not going to just say "Oh no this special snowflake monster is immune to your thing." or "Oh no, sorry but I just decided you can't do that anymore."It doesn't just defeat the purpose of powergaming, it defeats the entire purpose of playing.  The rules exist for a reason and both sides rely on their proper application.  If there are going to be exceptions to those rules it should be clear when and where that happens, not so people can take advantage of it, but so people can understand it.  The players don't have the power to ignore the rules whenever they want to.  I don't think your little turn of phrase there is accurate.  Besides, not everyone wants to be a hero.  An adventurer isn't necessarily a hero or a villain.  Heroes will fight a fight they know they'll lose but hold out hope that they'll win or the bad guy will see the folly of his evil ways, sure.  But Heroes don't only fight losing battles.  They fight the battles the have to fight because they own hold the power to stopping the BBEG.  Powergamers may not be heroes, seeking to minimize their chance of loss and only engage in combat on terms they can control and fights they feel they can reasonably win.  In that regard, power-gamers are reasonably easy to sucker.  Tempt them with an easy fight that suddenly becomes a battle for their lives because the enemy is not a moron.  There's nothing wrong with wanting to control your chance of success, it's GOOD STRATEGY.  I question if anyone just lets their character drift on the tides of the dice, not concerning themselves with anything at all.  Characters who die from avoidable deaths or from enemies that should not have been a challenge to them in situations where they simply got a string of unlucky hits aren't exactly fun experiences either.  And here's something I've said long ago: Everyone powergames.  Everyone.  The only difference are the goals.  "Typical" powergames aim for success in battle, combat superiority.  Others aim to make the best representation of the character concept they have in their head.  That is also powergaming.  It's simply different goalposts.  I suspect there are very few people who pay absolutely no mind to what they're rolling, what they're playing and don't care if they're good at it or not.  Want great story?  There's a way to optimize for that.  Want great battles?  There's a way to optimize for that.  Want to have the most fun possible?  Guess what: that's the goal of EVERYONE.Here's where I beg the question and I've seen people say what I expect so I'll ask as best I can without it being a loaded question:When those DMs go over and tell people "You're not a fit for our group."  Is it because of something they did, in the game, that caused disruption, or was it simply the fact that they put their character together in the most effective manner possible?  Or is that in itsself a problem?I have, forever, been great at math.  I build good characters.  I can't not build good characters.  I understand how all the numbers work and anything I will always be the absolute best version of whatever I have available to work with.  Now, with that said, as the saying goes "It's what you do with it that really counts."  Because I have seen and heard of DMs and other table members getting "offended" that someone power-built.  But I have also seen, and make an effort on my own, to play in a respectful manner to the rest of the table.  If people are "offended" that I can build mechanically optimized PCs, even if I'm working with sub-optimal parts, well then boo on them that's not my fault.  If people are "offended" because I'm a raging jerkface at the table through my manner of play, well okay then.  But don't tell me I need to build badly to make other people happy, that's just stupid.  I mean try it, tell it to yourself and see how it sounds:"Greetings table, for this game I expect everyone to build characters who aren't really that good and are just kinda average all around, because we don't want to risk triggering he-who-shall-not-be-named who gets offended over well-build characters."But here's the thing: being a raging jerkface is a personality trait, not a result of mechanical optimization.  There are people I know who absolutely FAIL at mechanical optimization and are still raging jerkfaces.  Noone wants raging jerkfaces at their table, not even powergamers.  Trust me you put two raging jerkface powergamers at the same table: they'll hate each other just as much as if they weren't powergames.</blockquote>

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