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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6858537">No, she's not fun to play in combat.  Oracle has great mental stats and is a completely unassuming person.  Okay she needs a little assistance getting around, big deal!  She could easily fill the role of the party Wizard, Bard, Cleric or any other mental-stat reliant character.  Heck, you could make her a witch-themed character who is reliant on a magical broom to get around!  Off the broom she has a movement speed of zero; treat the broom like a mount and use her first feat (she's a human after all!) to take Mounted Combat.  Boom, Oracle!  (I'll stat up a sheet if you want, I think I'll run her next time I play, talking it over with the DM of course.)Oh please.  If you optimize for social skills don't complain when you fail to succeed at combat.  And vicey-versa.  Oh give me a friggen break.  Optimizing for combat is no superior or inferior to optimizing for anything else.  It's NOT CHEATING.  No rules were broken, nothing was done without permission, nothing was fudged, cheated or anything else off the sort.  Comparing powergaming to CHEATING is nothing by lying hyperbole.  You KNOW darn well it's a false comparison.Lolwut?  How is this even a comparison?  You have players who WANT to cheat, but don't, and then Bob goes ahead and cheats?  You're comparing apples to airplanes.  The fact that they start with the same letter doesn't mean they have anything in common.  -This comparison is hereby disregarded as bumpkis.Metagaming is a table rule, not a book rule.  The book even talks about people coordinating out of character as part of normal play.  Since power gamers use only the rules available to them, this statement is hereby: disregarded!And why should they?  Bob probably spent a lot of time and effort memorizing all that stuff.  There's no rule against reading the MM.  You may have table rules against reading the MM while at the table, but you're not Bob's lord and master.  If he wants to go home and read the MM, it is his right that you have no say over to stop him.  Any DM who told me what I could or could not read in my free time would never see my dice at his table, that's just a creepy level of control-freak I don't need in my life.  If the DM asks me not to read the MM, okay fine, I may not, but at the same time, I may have read it long before he came around.  The best the DM can ask is to not use out-of-game knowledge in the game, if your character doesn't know it, he doesn't know it.What?  How is this even a comparison?  At best the PHB makes some light mention on being respectful to everyone, but typically what sort of conversation goes on at a table is a table rule  Power gamers don't break rules, they take advantage of them to the best of their ability.  Oh grow up.  Making best use of the rules is NOT CHEATING.  Dear lord I can't even fathom how you could consider using the rules to your best advantage to be CHEATING.  Crickent in a can I don't even know what to think about that.  You have honest to goodness blown my mind to claim that following the rules, making the best use of them possible, is CHEATING.  Just wow.And I'm certain Captain Charming performs poorly in other areas of the game.  Just like the Justice League.  The Flash is terrible at social skills.  Batman can make a great argument but is a charismatic deadzone.  Everyone LOVES Superman but he isn't the brightest bulb in tool shed.  Wonder Woman could punch through a bear, have a smokin bod, and still have all of the diplomatic tact of a rabid dog and have no idea how to go on a date.But together, Batman can make a persuasive argument.  Superman can charm the crowd.  Flash can pass out the flyers.  Wonder Woman can recite ancient history like it was yesterday and fight a bear.  Strengths AND weaknesses.  So Bob wins all the charisma checks.  All that means is that the moment you put him in a situation that doesn't rely on charisma, Bob will now have to rely on his team instead of his tongue.No, you need to play with people who seek the same outcomes as everyone else.  Noone is ever going to be a completely equally skilled group, it's impossible.  Beyond that, I may be skilled with building Paladins and Fighters, but I couldn't build a Bard to save my neck.  But who cares?  If the goal is to beat up monsters, then we'll all just build what we're best at.  If the goal is to charm the people and claim the throne through back room deals, diplomacy and persuasion, we'll also build what we're best at for that outcome.No.  You don't get to ask people to "play badly" because the other people are unable or worse unwilling to play well.  That is victim shaming.  You're not a victim if you choose to play less than optimally.  You chose that.  That was 100% ON YOU.  I honestly can't even what sort of groups you run.  I'm picturing a bunch of people who all know how to build good characters all building bad characters because they're terrified someone (likely you) is going to be triggered.Then you're being hypocritical.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  Do you want your BBEGs to show off their cool abilities that you spent a lot of time working on?  Then play them smart so they can.  This comment needs no response here.  You either play your characters in a manner so that they get to show off their cool powers, or you accept the risk that they won't get to do that.Tough beans!  And while you're at it.  Make up your mind!  Is it fun to always win or isn't it?  Is losing means less fun for you then power-game!  If you're okay with losing then don't worry about it!Yeah so, as I mentioned in practically every response here: find the balance.  Don't tell people to play poorly because you can't figure it out.  Why do people keep comparing power-gaming to cheating?  THAT is what mystifies me.  Limit the rules all you want.  Restrict the available options to the bare minimum.  I'll still work the best thing I can with whatever is left over.  That's not cheating.  Cheating is defined by breaking the rules.  Table rules against power-gaming aside, I can't possibly fathom why people have this twisted idea that following the rules and using them to the best advantage is cheating. When playing with a mixed group, what people need to do is step out of themselves for a moment.  You're part of a group, you're part of a team.  Succeed where you want to succeed!  Don't worry about where others are succeeding!  It's a group effort.  Optimizing for creativity.  Optimizing for combat.  Yes, it is optimization, you just have to step out of the idea and realize that the goals are exactly the same: success in your chosen area!  If your "chosen area" is to be a greatly role-played character with amazing chest hair then don't be ashamed to optimize for that.  Did you use the rules to leverage the best possible outcome towards the goal you set for yourself?Yes?  Mazel tov you're an optimizer.No?  Sure.  Some people optimize with the goal of being a jerk.  Not gonna deny that.  Those people are typically jerks from the get-go, they want to step in, crush heads and have everyone praise them.  That's a Grade-AA sign of jerkishness.  We should all be working hard to filter out the jerks to make for the best play environment possible, for everyone.  But we shouldn't start assuming that because a person likes to play a certain way, they must be a jerk.  Always give people the benefit of the doubt.  If they prove themselves a jerk, don't let that make you cold to other people with similarities.  Let each person succeed or fail at being a positive addition to not just your table, but tabletop gaming as a whole on their own merits.</blockquote>

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