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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6859216" data-attributes="member: 42582">Again, answering on my own account - but I think with at least a degree of sympathy for the OP.One issue is the ambiguity of the hiding rules - which in many ways are less clear even than the AD&amp;D ones (which are very punitive on thief players, but at least tolerably clear). Two points of contrast can be drawn with 4e: first, 4e's Stealth skill rules are plain clearer; second, a 4e rogue can take various abilities that override the general Stealth rules and just allow the player to stipulate &quot;My character is invisible to those who are looking for him/her!&quot; These abilities tend to be rationed, but can be pulled out at key moments. (A bit like the way, in more traditional D&amp;D, spells are pulled out at key moments when the players want to impose their will on the shared fiction.)But another issue is that, even if you are hidden, it's not clear what this achieves in terms of impact on the fiction (especially out of combat). There is nothing analogous to the skill challenge mechanic whereby, if you successfully hide in the course of pursuing your goal, then the GM is obliged to credit you with some degree of success towards that goal within the fiction.That's what I am calling the issue of finality.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6859216, member: 42582"] Again, answering on my own account - but I think with at least a degree of sympathy for the OP. One issue is the ambiguity of the hiding rules - which in many ways are less clear even than the AD&D ones (which are very punitive on thief players, but at least tolerably clear). Two points of contrast can be drawn with 4e: first, 4e's Stealth skill rules are plain clearer; second, a 4e rogue can take various abilities that override the general Stealth rules and just allow the player to stipulate "My character is invisible to those who are looking for him/her!" These abilities tend to be rationed, but can be pulled out at key moments. (A bit like the way, in more traditional D&D, spells are pulled out at key moments when the players want to impose their will on the shared fiction.) But another issue is that, even if you are hidden, it's not clear what this achieves in terms of impact on the fiction (especially out of combat). There is nothing analogous to the skill challenge mechanic whereby, if you successfully hide in the course of pursuing your goal, then the GM is [I]obliged[/I] to credit you with some degree of success towards that goal within the fiction. That's what I am calling the issue of [I]finality[/I]. [/QUOTE]

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