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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 6859395">I think we're using &quot;player agency&quot; much differently.&nbsp; It seems like you are using it to mean &quot;range of available mechanical options&quot;.&nbsp; So if, in 4e, a player doesn't have that particular daily ability, wouldn't he/she have to play &quot;Mother May I?&quot; in order to try it?&nbsp; And what would the DM say?&nbsp; &quot;No&quot;, right?&nbsp; So that's absence of player agency (by your apparent definition).Is there a move in 4e that allows a player to stab an enemy in the eye, messing with their depth perception and giving them a penalty to range shots?&nbsp; (Sorry, I'm not familiar with 4e so I don't know what whacky abilities are in there.)&nbsp; So if a player wants to do that, and the DM gets to decide yes/no, that's lack of player agency?That's a very weird definition of player agency.I use &quot;player agency&quot; to mean &quot;the player and nobody else decides what the player does and thinks&quot;.&nbsp; So the player might say, &quot;I try to cut the leather straps on my opponent's breast-plate so that his armor falls off&quot; and the DM says, &quot;Ok, make a roll&quot;.&nbsp; Whether or not it works, whatever DC the DM gave it (or if he's even giving it a DC at all) that's player agency: the player dictated what his character was doing, and the character did it.&nbsp; It's when the DM says, &quot;No, you can't even try that&quot; that player agency is lost.Some people like to argue, &quot;Ok, then I'll have my fighter cast fireball, and if you say no that's taking away my agency.&quot;&nbsp; No, it's not.&nbsp; The player should be free to wave his arms around and try to repeat the words he heard the wizard say.&nbsp; That's player agency.&nbsp; Whether it works or not has nothing to do with agency.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 6859395"] I think we're using "player agency" much differently. It seems like you are using it to mean "range of available mechanical options". So if, in 4e, a player doesn't have that particular daily ability, wouldn't he/she have to play "Mother May I?" in order to try it? And what would the DM say? "No", right? So that's absence of player agency (by your apparent definition). Is there a move in 4e that allows a player to stab an enemy in the eye, messing with their depth perception and giving them a penalty to range shots? (Sorry, I'm not familiar with 4e so I don't know what whacky abilities are in there.) So if a player wants to do that, and the DM gets to decide yes/no, that's lack of player agency? That's a very weird definition of player agency. I use "player agency" to mean "the player and nobody else decides what the player does and thinks". So the player might say, "I try to cut the leather straps on my opponent's breast-plate so that his armor falls off" and the DM says, "Ok, make a roll". Whether or not it works, whatever DC the DM gave it (or if he's even giving it a DC at all) that's player agency: the player dictated what his character was doing, and the character did it. It's when the DM says, "No, you can't even try that" that player agency is lost. Some people like to argue, "Ok, then I'll have my fighter cast fireball, and if you say no that's taking away my agency." No, it's not. The player should be free to wave his arms around and try to repeat the words he heard the wizard say. That's player agency. Whether it works or not has nothing to do with agency. [/QUOTE]

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