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<blockquote data-quote="feartheminotaur" data-source="post: 6859749" data-attributes="member: 6801354">Diplomacy was just an example*. My post was about players who mistake rolling the dice at their choosing being &quot;player agency&quot;.&nbsp; It was because players believed the system worked like their powers: they did this and there was a set outcome.&nbsp; I have an action, and DM call or not, I'm taking it to roll.Your example merely proves that point.&nbsp; Action?&nbsp; That's the player's call.&nbsp; &quot;I use my action to make a diplomacy check to convince that guard to let us by&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; Look at the quoted text.&nbsp; &quot;The Dungeon Master sets the DC using the Difficulty Class by Level table&quot;.&nbsp; Players know their level.&nbsp; They know the DCs.&nbsp; Heck, they might even have the table in front of them.&nbsp; Barring an outrageous DC modifier (which, the DM could do, but then becomes a whole other issue), they know what the roll has to be.&nbsp; Nothing in that says the DM calls for the roll.&nbsp; Nothing.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's an action, and it has a defined outcome: &quot;Success: The creature achieves the desired influence.&quot;&nbsp; That right there? That is a defined, codified outcome.&nbsp; There is nothing like that in the 5e PHB.&nbsp; No text that a player can point to and say &quot;see, if I succeed this, by rule, has to happen&quot;.&nbsp; And I think that's an improvement.No frost-cheese radiant mafia built around lordduskblade's sky blue recommendations is going to buy &quot;implied the DM calls for the check&quot; (ie RAI) over what's on the page &quot;Action: Roll, Success = I achieve my stated goal &quot; (ie RAW).&nbsp;&nbsp; Was that what was intended?&nbsp; Probably not.&nbsp; Was that the way the game played out at the number of real and virtual tables I sat at?&nbsp; You bet.&nbsp; And, don't mistake me for being part of the pointless edition war nonsense in this thread - as a tactical wargamer I loved 4e and only stopped playing because my group wanted to and DDI ain't free (or supported much). I see some of the same problems in 5e games I play.*For the record, the skill I saw used in an &quot;you have to give me the auto-win&quot; in 4e was Intimidate (against a bloodied opponent). I played several games on roll20 where the second a creature became bloodied, which ever Charisma monkey was playing would immediately make an Intimidate roll.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="feartheminotaur, post: 6859749, member: 6801354"] Diplomacy was just an example*. My post was about players who mistake rolling the dice at their choosing being "player agency". It was because players believed the system worked like their powers: they did this and there was a set outcome. I have an action, and DM call or not, I'm taking it to roll. Your example merely proves that point. Action? That's the player's call. "I use my action to make a diplomacy check to convince that guard to let us by". Look at the quoted text. "The Dungeon Master sets the DC using the Difficulty Class by Level table". Players know their level. They know the DCs. Heck, they might even have the table in front of them. Barring an outrageous DC modifier (which, the DM could do, but then becomes a whole other issue), they know what the roll has to be. Nothing in that says the DM calls for the roll. Nothing. It's an action, and it has a defined outcome: "Success: The creature achieves the desired influence." That right there? [I]That[/I] is a defined, codified outcome. There is nothing like that in the 5e PHB. No text that a player can point to and say "see, if I succeed this, by rule, has to happen". And I think that's an improvement. No frost-cheese radiant mafia built around lordduskblade's sky blue recommendations is going to buy "implied the DM calls for the check" (ie RAI) over what's on the page "Action: Roll, Success = I achieve my stated goal " (ie RAW). Was that what was intended? Probably not. Was that the way the game played out at the number of real and virtual tables I sat at? You bet. And, don't mistake me for being part of the pointless edition war nonsense in this thread - as a tactical wargamer I loved 4e and only stopped playing because my group wanted to and DDI ain't free (or supported much). I see some of the same problems in 5e games I play. *For the record, the skill I saw used in an "you have to give me the auto-win" in 4e was Intimidate (against a bloodied opponent). I played several games on roll20 where the second a creature became bloodied, which ever Charisma monkey was playing would immediately make an Intimidate roll. [/QUOTE]

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