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Message: <blockquote data-quote="thecasualoblivion" data-source="post: 6876147" data-attributes="member: 59096">Excuse me if this takes a couple of posts, it's hard to do this the clean way on a mobile device.You're taking too narrow a view of the word survivability. I would include not getting pummeled so you spend time making death saves on the ground and not overly being a burden on the party's healing resources to be included in a broad definition of survivability. You can get pummeled to below zero hp frequently and be a drag on party resources and still level to 10-12 in 5E. s for playstyle, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Could you describe this playstyle?I was able to achieve my definition of awesome while playing a tank in both 2E and 4E. The tools to do so are absent from 5E.You bring up a possibly unintentional strawman. The 4E Swordmage was a very weak Defender and a very weak class overall, and a very poor example of playing an awesome 4E Defender, even in the hands of an optimizer. As for dealing damage, that wasn't just a Fighter thing. I could build a Defender who can reach the bottom end of Striker-tier damage with Fighter, Paladin, Warden, Battlemind, Knight, and Berserker. Damage isn't the only form of offense however, there is also control, which 4E Defenders tended to excel at. I'd even say that using control powers in combination with base Defender mechanics made 4E Defenders the most effective control type characters in the game. This also, ironically, is another area that Swordmages tended to be weaker compared to other Defenders.4E defined being awesome as something you didn't have to sacrifice in order to take one for the team. You got the full Defender package just for choosing a class. Healers primary resource was separate from their attacks, and healing or buffing was defined as something you did in addition to your attack, not instead of. 5E is a big step backwards.I'm not a fan of low level 5E, but to me that's a completely separate issue.1. In 4E, you never had to sacrifice offense/attacking for your role. A 4E Defender could be built for damage or control, but both are offense. For a 4E healer buffing allies was their primary offense, but it was something they accomplished in addition or in the midst of attacking, not instead of. They could also heal and attack in the same turn, and healing didn't compete with offense for resources.2. You didn't get less than a role. You were good at something. With 5E, you start out not particularly effective at anything, and if you make poor decisions you stay that way. Also, the roles in 4E were mostly balanced against each other(Controllers a bit less so), while in 5E they mostly aren't.5E is harder to houserule than 2E. 2E mechanics were generally isolated. If you changed or removed something, it rarely affected anything else. 5E was designed at a system level, and different mechanics were designed to interact with each other. Changing or removing one thing tends to cause unintended consequences to other parts of the system, because the pieces interlock. This makes it harder. As for 3E, I avoid making too many generalizations on play. In my experience, play varied between tables in 3E to a degree not seen in any other edition, and the culture of 3E tended to be more hostile towards low level play than any other edition.</blockquote>

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