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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6876162" data-attributes="member: 48965">No you're redefining &quot;survive&quot; for your own purposes.&nbsp; IYO... surviving is never having to make a death save and not being an over-burden on party healing.&nbsp; While I on the other hand think all of that is irrelevant when the question is... did you survive to see another level... because if you did then it doesn't matter, you survived. Well since you keep using the word awesome without a clear definition... I'll just have to take your word for it.No your contention was that you didn't sacrifice in one role when you chose a class with a particular role... I showed you an example where that was false.&nbsp; You're not getting it though, the sacrifice was made in the very design of the class... yes you might have been good in your primary role and ok in your secondary but that leaves 2 more roles you suck in.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because you're specialized in your classes role.But you still sacrificed in 4e.&nbsp; Could the fighter in 4e cover the leader role without expending resources to delve into that area?&nbsp; No... that's the &quot;sacrifice&quot; you're making in 4e to be a specialized defender.&nbsp; THe difference is 5e says hey instead of us telling you how much defender and how much striker you're character class is going to have... we'll give you a much wider berth to customize that.I don't think it is...Sure you did... you did less damage than most strikers in exchange for more durability as a defender.&nbsp; Again could a 4e fighter be an adequate leader? No.&nbsp; Could a 4e&nbsp; leader do the same type of damage that a striker could in a single round?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; There were definite trade-offs, they were just hidden within the selection of the class itself.&nbsp;So you like optimizing... but don't like that your role isn't pre-decided for you and you have to make choices to perform a certain role or roles in the game?&nbsp; I'm curious, what kind of &quot;poor decisions&quot; can be made in 5e that make you ineffective at anything?&nbsp; All of the classes, at least in so far as I am remembering them right now have base proficiency in something through class abilities alone.&nbsp; I'm curious what changes are you talking about?&nbsp; Or is this purely theoretical?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 6876162, member: 48965"] No you're redefining "survive" for your own purposes. IYO... surviving is never having to make a death save and not being an over-burden on party healing. While I on the other hand think all of that is irrelevant when the question is... did you survive to see another level... because if you did then it doesn't matter, you survived. Well since you keep using the word awesome without a clear definition... I'll just have to take your word for it. No your contention was that you didn't sacrifice in one role when you chose a class with a particular role... I showed you an example where that was false. You're not getting it though, the sacrifice was made in the very design of the class... yes you might have been good in your primary role and ok in your secondary but that leaves 2 more roles you suck in. Why? Because you're specialized in your classes role. But you still sacrificed in 4e. Could the fighter in 4e cover the leader role without expending resources to delve into that area? No... that's the "sacrifice" you're making in 4e to be a specialized defender. THe difference is 5e says hey instead of us telling you how much defender and how much striker you're character class is going to have... we'll give you a much wider berth to customize that. I don't think it is... Sure you did... you did less damage than most strikers in exchange for more durability as a defender. Again could a 4e fighter be an adequate leader? No. Could a 4e leader do the same type of damage that a striker could in a single round? No. There were definite trade-offs, they were just hidden within the selection of the class itself. So you like optimizing... but don't like that your role isn't pre-decided for you and you have to make choices to perform a certain role or roles in the game? I'm curious, what kind of "poor decisions" can be made in 5e that make you ineffective at anything? All of the classes, at least in so far as I am remembering them right now have base proficiency in something through class abilities alone. I'm curious what changes are you talking about? Or is this purely theoretical? [/QUOTE]

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