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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8417384" data-attributes="member: 16814">Okay, I guess I can't stop you. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🤷" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f937.png" title="Person shrugging    :person_shrugging:" data-shortname=":person_shrugging:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />Of course you can do investigations in AW.  They just don't look anything like what you're trying to insist an investigation looks like.  People investigate things in AW all the time.  It's not a calm examination of a crime scene looking for ways to get the GM to tell you clues, though.  Which is why I keep bringing up Monopoly and Risk -- you can't play Risk with Monopoly rules.  This is so obvious that it seems a very silly thing to say, but here we are.No, renown scores how well the GM thinks NPCs react to your actions.  There are no others, here, just the GM.  Let's get down to brass tacks about how these systems work in 5e -- they exist as substitutes for alignment that are entirely dependent on the GM's take on things.  This can be made perfectly obvious by asking if players can increase their renown score on their own, because they think it should go up.  Of course they cannot, only the GM grants renown points.Okay.  I mean, we're in a discussion where I'm trying to explain how AW works to you, and I have decades of experience with D&D and similar systems (like CoC).  I talk about how games work quite a lot.  I think the difference here is that you're quite used to games where the GM retains almost all of the authority in the system and so don't really question it because it's the normal.  I did that for quite some time as well.  Now I can tell when systems are gated by GM says.  I still like quite a few of them, so I don't view it as a detriment, just how it works.Clearly they would, but this isn't sufficient for finding out how it would play in a given PbtA system because these are pretty much at the level of background interest a game like D&D or CoC has -- it's interesting, perhaps a reasonable explanation for PC involvement, but it doesn't work to drive a dramatic tension.  These are relationships to the deceased, not to the investigation.  So, a good start, but we need more.No, because I'm not arguing what has meaning for a character, I'm saying you haven't provided a sufficient level of meaning for a AW scene.  You need a dramatic conflict.  Looking for the GM to tell you about clues to what the GM's notes say about the murder is both insufficient and also like trying to invade Australia from Park Place -- it doesn't make a lick of sense in the context of what the game is about.Okay, how would you invade Australia from Park Place?  This isn't being defensive, or a rant, or anything other than pointing out that you've entirely missed the point when you keep asking these questions.  I get that you want to stake the claim that AW (or PbtA in general) don't do a thing, but it's just like complaining that Risk isn't Monopoly.  You seem to think that a given scenario common in one kind of play means that it's common or expected in all kinds of play.  This is the error, and this is what I'm trying to get you to see -- that situation could not even occur in an AW game, so not having rules to adjudicate it isn't a failing just like not having rules on how to invade Australia from Park Place in Monopoly isn't a failing.  It's a category error on your part.I'll say it again, for clarity:  the situation you've describe above could not even occur in an AW game.  The premise of the scene and the expected outcomes are alien to the conceptual basis of the game.  Dead people?  Interest in whodunnit?  Consequences for dawdling?  Sure, that can happen, just not at all the way you've presented.It's bad.  It's bad because AW doesn't like plots.  You can't run a plot in AW.  It fights you, and if you force it, the system will be disappointing and confusing to both the GM and the players because you'll be trying to reconcile what it's telling you to do with what you're forcing on it and that won't reconcile.I didn't say you were assuming you know how it works.  I'm saying I'm not the authority here to be questioned -- that's your assumption about how it should work.  I'm actually inviting you to consider a new way to think about it, and, so far, you keep asking how to do things that make sense in one but not in the other and resisting every single time you're told it doesn't make sense in the other.  I'm sorry my explanations are doing it for you -- it requires you to make the leap of faith at some point.  It did for me, and I understand your frustration -- I felt it to for years.  Stop and assume that I'm not being defensive, that what I'm saying actually works, and see if you can work around to it that way.  This was how I got it, maybe it works for you?Because I've tried it.  D&D fights back.  System matters.  I am absolutely limiting how I play D&D, just like I'm absolutely limiting how I play Blades in the Dark.  This is normal.  I'm not suppose to try to play Monopoly like it's Risk, and RPGs aren't different in kind this way.  I play D&D in a way that I have, through trial, error, and long thought, found the game works best with the least additional effort on my part to try to "fix" things.  I play Blades with the same approach.  I'm playing Aliens with the same approach.  I'm playing Kids on Bikes with the same approach (and I've had the most fun creating characters in KoB that I've had with any other game).  Limiting how you play a game is extremely normal and should be expected.  D&D works best when the GM is in charge, and deploys Force in reasonable amounts to maintain a fun experience for everyone.  It doesn't do deep introspective dives on characters, or provide a game framework where you can really explore characters, but it does provide a framework where you can author and express your character for the entertainment of others.  You'll never be challenged or have to risk who your character is in D&D, because it's not that type of game.  If you are, then you're outside of D&D and winging it.  Which is fine, just don't credit D&D for your work.</blockquote>

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