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Message: <blockquote data-quote="airwalkrr" data-source="post: 2934392" data-attributes="member: 12460">That is more or less the way I feel. Even if you give someone access to EVERY necromancy spell, that doesn't even border on overpowering if those are the only spells they get.And Smootrk, I saw your thread on the beguiler a while back. I agree with you. Part of the difficulty of just adding to their list is that, for a class that has a spell list that is set in stone, you open the door for a lot of variation if you start picking and choosing individual spells. My approach is to look at what the beguiler spells have in common and just allow all similar spells, but to balance that, they should have either a spells known list, or have to prepare and learn spells like a wizard. A vast majority of their spells are enchantments or illusions. All enchantments and illusions fulfill basically the same purpose, so why not allow them all.Basically, I think of these classes as a hybrid specialist mage plus another class. A warmage is an evoker who can wear armor. A beguiler is a sneaky illusionist/enchanter. A dread necromancer is a priestly necromancer.Ok, so let's crunch some numbers here. I'll start on the beguiler since Smootrk was asking about it earlier. The beguiler spells fall into the following categories.Abjuration: break enchantment, dispel magic, freedom of movement, greater dispel magic, mind blank, nondetection, repulsion, solid fog, spell turning, undetectable alignmentConjuration (Creation): fog cloud, glitterdust, mage armor [force], obscuring mist, phase doorDivination: arcane sight, comprehend languages, detect magic, detect secret doors, detect thoughts [mind-affecting], discern location, foresight, greater arcane sight, locate creature, moment of prescience, Rary's telepathic bond, read magic, see invisibility, true seeingDivination (Scrying): clairaudience/clairvoyanceEnchantment: incite riot [mind-affecting]Enchantment (Charm): charm monster [mind-affecting], charm person [mind-affecting], stay the hand [mind-affecting]Enchantment (Compulsion): confusion [mind-affecting], crushing despair [mind-affecting], daze [mind-affecting], daze monster [mind-affecting], deep slumber [mind-affecting], demand [mind-affecting], dominate monster [mind-affecting], dominate person [mind-affecting], feeblemind [mind-affecting], halt [mind-affecting], hold monster [mind-affecting], hold person [mind-affecting], hypnotism [mind-affecting], inevitable defeat [mind-affecting], mass hold monster [mind-affecting], mass hold person [mind-affecting], mass suggestion [language-dependent, mind-affecting], mass whelm [mind-affecting], mind fog [mind-affecting], overwhelm [mind-affecting], power word blind [mind-affecting], power word stund [mind-affecting], power word kill [mind-affecting], rouse [mind-affecting], sleep [mind-affecting], suggestion [language-dependent, mind-affecting], touch of idiocy [mind-affecting], whelm [mind-affecting], whelming blast [mind-affecting]Evocation: dancing lights [light], sendingIllusion (Figment): crown of veils, ghost sound, greater mirror image, major image, mirror image, phantom battle, silent imageIllusion (Figment, Glamer): misleadIllusion (Glamer): blinding color surge, blur, disguise self, displacement, greater invisibility, invisibility, invisibility sphere, mass invisibility, misdirection, screen, seeming, silence, veil, zone of silenceIllusion (Pattern): color spray [mind-affecting], hypnotic pattern [mind-affecting], rainbow pattern [mind-affecting], scintillating pattern [mind-affecting], vertigo fieldIllusion (Phantasm): friend to foe [mind-affecting], vertigo [fear, mind-affecting]Illusion (Shadow): legion of sentinels, project image, shadow walkTransmutation: ethereal jaunt, etherealness, expeditious retreat, glibness, halt, haste, knock, message [language-dependent], open/close, slow, spider climb, swift etherealness, time stopOf the beguiler's spells, 10 are abjurations, 5 are conjurations, 14 are divinations, 33 are enchantments, 2 are evocations, 32 are illusions, and 13 are transmutations. Well over half (59.6%) of the beguiler's spells are enchantments or illusions so clearly these spells are their bread and butter. More than half of the illusion spells in the PH are beguiler spells, and the same goes for enchantments. Clearly enchantment and illusion are the beguiler's bread and butter.Now what spells were left out? Necromancy was left out entirely. Evocation was practically ignored and I honestly believe most beguilers can do without those spells anyway. Conjuration makes a token appearance, but only in the form of spells in the creation subschool, and only a small minority of those to boot. The few abjurations that made their way in are primarily helpful in avoiding detection and negative magical effects. The transmutations are primarily beneficial in aiding the beguiler trying to get into difficult to reach places. And the divinations seem focused on scouting and awareness. Regarding the enchantment and illusion schools, most spells of the shadow subschool were left out (probably because they are mostly combat spells) and most phantasms were also left out. Plus most of the enchantments that boost the beguiler or his allies and symbols were left out as well.I have no specific recommendations, but it would seem like the candidates that best fit the beguiler's spell list would be spells that have the following characteristics:-enchantments of the charm or compulsion subschool that are not symbols and have negative impacts on the target(s)-illusions in the glamer and figment subschool-divinations that aid in scouting and prescience-abjurations that negate harmful magical effects or help in avoiding detection-transmutations that speed up the caster or allow access to hard-to-reach locations-the occassional conjuration spell of the creation subschool that can cause confusion or miscommunication in foes (typically area effects); obscuring mist is a prime example of the kind of conjuration (creation) spells to allow</blockquote>

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