Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Thoughts on E6 (Paladins, Rangers, Bards, and Gestalt Classing)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="King Lemming" data-source="post: 3659940" data-attributes="member: 16411"><p>Hey all, I realize this is my first actual post on EN World, and I've been registered for forever...been in and out of the d20 scene, if anyone remembers way back a few years ago, I think my last notable post was a prestige class called the Woodland Muse on Monte Cook's boards.</p><p></p><p>Anyways, I gotta admit, I'm very impressed with the concept of E6 and how it works. Haven't tried it yet, but it sounds good so far. Keeping in mind the whole issue of class balancing, there are a few things that I think should maybe be addressed in E6. And really, I guess a lot of this relates to multi-classing...so here's some food for thought:</p><p></p><p>Rangers(one of the many variants, doesn't matter), paladins, and bards tend to be a bit front loaded. Sure alignment restrictions can help alleviate the multi-classing tendencies, but fact is that dipping into these classes can result in some really neat benefits.</p><p></p><p>So, as an idea, look at the spellcasting tables for these classes. Now shift them upward to level 1, so that all 3 classes receive 0 1st level spells at level one. The end result? Paladins and rangers get the ability to cast a level 2 spell, and bards can cast a level 3, if their charisma is high enough.</p><p></p><p>I fully understand the point of E6 is to prevent overpowered spells from entering play. But ridiculous splatbooks aside, the spells in question here are not overpowered - they're level 2 and 3, which fits well within the quartile.</p><p></p><p>Yes, maybe it's a small extra boost to paladins and rangers. However, it's more of an incentive to not go for the power multi-class. There has been a ton of discussion of the futility of the fighter, and Combat Veteran (I believe) was created to help this - it works well, gives pure fighters a place. Now let's help justify purity of the other classes.</p><p></p><p>By giving the bard an extra spell (with sufficient charisma), there's now actually a decision to be made. The bard/sorcerer combination is still very possible and very attractive, but there's actually a point to playing a bard to 6.</p><p></p><p>On another note - it would be good to have a feat for Inspire Greatness, as frankly it's not *that* powerful, and it is technically a level 9 ability. The requirement? 6 levels of bard. Given the lower number nature of E6, I think it would work well to help solidify a pure bard as a valid choice of class.</p><p></p><p>Alright, I think I've rambled enough there, hopefully there's a decent idea somewhere in that mess of text. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Now, about Gestalt classing. Yeah, it's been said they're 1.3x a normal character. I'm not entirely sure how that calculation came about, but I believe it. Do I think it's a problem in E6? Actually, no - but it needs to be controlled. Personally, I'm a big fan of gestalt, it lets me run games with fewer players and gives me a bit more freedom in some of the content I design.</p><p></p><p>Here's the thing: Multi-classing wrecks gestalt. In my opinion, if you're going to do it, a character picks their two classes at the start, and that's IT. And within the context of E6, I think that works well. Basically, kind of like 2nd Ed D&D multiclassing, except without the ridiculous demi-human restrictions.</p><p></p><p>Conceptually, the point is that they've matured as an adventurer, right? And the post-level 6 advancement just represents the height of their careers. Okay, makes great sense. But really, how much maturing can someone do when their path consists of 4+ classes? Limiting it to two gives some more balanced ideas and helps with character concepts. Another thing here is that the DM must be careful in what's feasible and what's not. Sticking to the core books obviously helps here - and it has to make sense in the context of the world. Scout/rogue? Hrm...I'm skeptical myself, for instance.</p><p></p><p>The advantage here is also for the DM - it allows for greater variety of NPCs without truly upping the ante that much. Sure, a dragon cult might be all sorcerers. But what if they're rather tribal in nature, and they're actually barbarian/sorcerers? Definitely changes a few things.</p><p></p><p>Or, depending on the game world, an order of knights dedicated to protecting and gathering the lore of the world (Paladin/bard, if you'll excuse the alignment differences).</p><p></p><p>In a lot of cases, having the 1.3x power is a wash if you note that none of the abilities available break that level 4 or 5 spell barrier, and also since the DM can definitely do it too. It'll make the heroes a little more heroic, that's true. But I think we're still in the golden quartile. Again, you have to take care, fighter/rogue will of course be a powerhouse - if need be, stipulate that any sneak attacking has to be done in light armor. A small mechanic tweak to prevent too much insanity.</p><p></p><p>Alright, basically I guess to sum it up, I'm impressed with E6. I would LOVE to run it in a Gestalt format with a few House Rule tweaks as well - I think the strength of the system is that a character can focus on just being the character, and not being a ridiculous hodgepodge of classes. To me, it harkens back to playing Hero Quest again, where simplicity was golden and it was a ton of fun. So think about some of the ideas - I think with some basic class guidelines in place, the horizon only expands for DM and players alike.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="King Lemming, post: 3659940, member: 16411"] Hey all, I realize this is my first actual post on EN World, and I've been registered for forever...been in and out of the d20 scene, if anyone remembers way back a few years ago, I think my last notable post was a prestige class called the Woodland Muse on Monte Cook's boards. Anyways, I gotta admit, I'm very impressed with the concept of E6 and how it works. Haven't tried it yet, but it sounds good so far. Keeping in mind the whole issue of class balancing, there are a few things that I think should maybe be addressed in E6. And really, I guess a lot of this relates to multi-classing...so here's some food for thought: Rangers(one of the many variants, doesn't matter), paladins, and bards tend to be a bit front loaded. Sure alignment restrictions can help alleviate the multi-classing tendencies, but fact is that dipping into these classes can result in some really neat benefits. So, as an idea, look at the spellcasting tables for these classes. Now shift them upward to level 1, so that all 3 classes receive 0 1st level spells at level one. The end result? Paladins and rangers get the ability to cast a level 2 spell, and bards can cast a level 3, if their charisma is high enough. I fully understand the point of E6 is to prevent overpowered spells from entering play. But ridiculous splatbooks aside, the spells in question here are not overpowered - they're level 2 and 3, which fits well within the quartile. Yes, maybe it's a small extra boost to paladins and rangers. However, it's more of an incentive to not go for the power multi-class. There has been a ton of discussion of the futility of the fighter, and Combat Veteran (I believe) was created to help this - it works well, gives pure fighters a place. Now let's help justify purity of the other classes. By giving the bard an extra spell (with sufficient charisma), there's now actually a decision to be made. The bard/sorcerer combination is still very possible and very attractive, but there's actually a point to playing a bard to 6. On another note - it would be good to have a feat for Inspire Greatness, as frankly it's not *that* powerful, and it is technically a level 9 ability. The requirement? 6 levels of bard. Given the lower number nature of E6, I think it would work well to help solidify a pure bard as a valid choice of class. Alright, I think I've rambled enough there, hopefully there's a decent idea somewhere in that mess of text. ;) Now, about Gestalt classing. Yeah, it's been said they're 1.3x a normal character. I'm not entirely sure how that calculation came about, but I believe it. Do I think it's a problem in E6? Actually, no - but it needs to be controlled. Personally, I'm a big fan of gestalt, it lets me run games with fewer players and gives me a bit more freedom in some of the content I design. Here's the thing: Multi-classing wrecks gestalt. In my opinion, if you're going to do it, a character picks their two classes at the start, and that's IT. And within the context of E6, I think that works well. Basically, kind of like 2nd Ed D&D multiclassing, except without the ridiculous demi-human restrictions. Conceptually, the point is that they've matured as an adventurer, right? And the post-level 6 advancement just represents the height of their careers. Okay, makes great sense. But really, how much maturing can someone do when their path consists of 4+ classes? Limiting it to two gives some more balanced ideas and helps with character concepts. Another thing here is that the DM must be careful in what's feasible and what's not. Sticking to the core books obviously helps here - and it has to make sense in the context of the world. Scout/rogue? Hrm...I'm skeptical myself, for instance. The advantage here is also for the DM - it allows for greater variety of NPCs without truly upping the ante that much. Sure, a dragon cult might be all sorcerers. But what if they're rather tribal in nature, and they're actually barbarian/sorcerers? Definitely changes a few things. Or, depending on the game world, an order of knights dedicated to protecting and gathering the lore of the world (Paladin/bard, if you'll excuse the alignment differences). In a lot of cases, having the 1.3x power is a wash if you note that none of the abilities available break that level 4 or 5 spell barrier, and also since the DM can definitely do it too. It'll make the heroes a little more heroic, that's true. But I think we're still in the golden quartile. Again, you have to take care, fighter/rogue will of course be a powerhouse - if need be, stipulate that any sneak attacking has to be done in light armor. A small mechanic tweak to prevent too much insanity. Alright, basically I guess to sum it up, I'm impressed with E6. I would LOVE to run it in a Gestalt format with a few House Rule tweaks as well - I think the strength of the system is that a character can focus on just being the character, and not being a ridiculous hodgepodge of classes. To me, it harkens back to playing Hero Quest again, where simplicity was golden and it was a ton of fun. So think about some of the ideas - I think with some basic class guidelines in place, the horizon only expands for DM and players alike. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Thoughts on E6 (Paladins, Rangers, Bards, and Gestalt Classing)
Top