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General Tabletop Discussion
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)
Thoughts on Eldritch Blast options for Warlock
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<blockquote data-quote="Tessarael" data-source="post: 8954059" data-attributes="member: 12909"><p>Regard 1., agreed, particularly at level 5+ with Agonizing Blast compared to Eldritch Disturbance vs. an opponent that doesn't have high AC and low Wisdom saving throw.</p><p></p><p>Regarding 2., Warlocks don't get shield proficiency, so unless you are multi-classed, have the Moderately Outfitted feat, or a Warlock archetype that gives shield proficiency (Hexblade from 5E D&D), then Warlock doesn't have the weapon-and-shield option. However, two-weapon fighting scales well and outdoes Eldritch Scythe for single-target damage until 17th level's Extra Blast (four blasts vs. 2 main hand attacks + 2 off-hand attacks when two-weapon fighting). The issue with two-weapon fighting is un(sheath) free object interactions to free a hand to cast spells with seen/somatic and material components, unless you have the Battle Caster feat to cast spells with V,S components.</p><p></p><p>I agree with your comments about a ranged Eldritch Blast and Pact of the Blade for melee capability. That seems the most natural choice to go with, at the cost of not getting your magical melee weapon modifier from Pact of the Blade to attack/damage of ranged Eldritch Ray.</p><p></p><p>Eldritch Scythe is good for melee attack of opportunity, scaling much better than an attack with a melee weapon at level 5+.</p><p></p><p>Regarding 3., I think that your math on Eldritch Whip may be out-of-date vs. the more recent A5E version of Warlock's Eldritch Whip. In particular, the Warlock gets half the damage done by Eldritch Whip as temporary HP, and half of that as additional damage. So if you successfully hit each round, and add that up across rounds, at best you're getting +1/4 + 1/16 + 1/64 ... = +1/3 damage in the limit. However compared to Eldritch Scythe, Eldritch Whip doesn't benefit from magic weapon modifier to attack/damage, it does 1d6 instead of 1d8, and it doesn't do half damage to a target within reach, so it is clearly inferior in damage output to Eldritch Scythe assuming (1) you're within 5' to hit targets with Eldritch Scythe, and (2) you will sufficiently often have opportunity to do 1/2 damage to a target within reach with Eldritch Scythe. And in any case, Eldritch Whip doesn't get that much extra damage across rounds, as you miss sometimes, want to cast a spell instead of attacking, etc.</p><p></p><p>The only major benefits that I see from Eldritch Whip are the 15' attack range, the temporary HP if you had none or few temporary HP, and the paralyzation with Eldritch Bind. So one option to make good use of it is to whack opponents in melee, and then every so often flick others at 15' range with your Eldritch Whip, say to push them back 10' with Repelling Blast or to pull them into melee with Eldritch Tentacle. Situationally, Eldritch Whip can be useful, I just think it is not that often where it has a clear benefit.</p><p></p><p>Regarding 4., I think one of the most important uses for Eldritch Disturbance at higher levels is with Eldritch Riposte. Eldritch Disturbance does more damage with Eldritch Riposte than Eldritch Ray, because the target takes half damage if they make their save, and because you're not making a ranged spell attack with disadvantage vs. a melee opponent.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>IMHO, I think your best option may be something like this:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eldritch Disturbance at 1st level</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eldritch Warrior at 2nd level to get martial weapon proficiency and significantly improved AC</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eldritch Riposte at 3rd level to bump damage output, at the cost of spell points to power it</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thirsting Blade at level 5 if you intend to use melee/ranged weapons to deal damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eldritch Ray at level 5+ with Versatile Blast</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lifedrinker to increase damage with your pact weapon, or Eldritch Scythe at level 5+ with a second choice of Versatile Blast at a later point.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Agonizing Blast at level 6 as your Eldritch Evolution</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Repelling Blast is good to pick up, as is Eldritch Tentacle if you like to melee your opponents.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">And don't bother with Eldritch Whip, as it is seldom worth it.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At very high levels, particularly level 17+, drop Lifedrinker and Thirsting Blade, and pick up other Eldritch Invocations, as Eldritch Blast is best now.</li> </ul><p>The "frustration" for me as a player who likes game mechanics, is that it takes a fair bit of analysis and deep understanding of the trade-offs before coming to this conclusion. Most players aren't going to understand the trade-offs at this level of detail, at least without reading someone else's analysis to get to that conclusion. And taking Versatile Blast twice to pick up the other Eldritch Blast types does have an opportunity cost - you're missing out on other very good Eldritch Invocations.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, for different builds your best choices vary. And if you're multi-classed to get medium armor proficiency, have high Dexterity to get good AC with light armor, or have Pact of the Blade, you may skip Eldritch Warrior.</p><p></p><p>If you're not playing a Dread Knight, Hexblade, or similar melee Warlock build with shield, martial weapons, and medium/heavy armor proficiency, I think that melee Warlocks have a glass jaw due to lower AC (no shield) and lower HP than other classes that can be much more melee-oriented like Berserker, Druid wild-shaper, Fighter, Herald, Marshal, Ranger, and Rogue. For that reason, I think that trying to create a melee Warlock can often be a bit of a suboptimal trap ... Hence Eldritch Scythe and two-weapon fighting can be subpar, and you either want a reach weapon (Eldritch Whip?) or Eldritch Ray/Disturbance to attack at a distance. The argument for Eldritch Whip may come down to a reach weapon making good sense for a Warlock to reduce damage by not being directly in melee, but then why not just use Eldritch Ray?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tessarael, post: 8954059, member: 12909"] Regard 1., agreed, particularly at level 5+ with Agonizing Blast compared to Eldritch Disturbance vs. an opponent that doesn't have high AC and low Wisdom saving throw. Regarding 2., Warlocks don't get shield proficiency, so unless you are multi-classed, have the Moderately Outfitted feat, or a Warlock archetype that gives shield proficiency (Hexblade from 5E D&D), then Warlock doesn't have the weapon-and-shield option. However, two-weapon fighting scales well and outdoes Eldritch Scythe for single-target damage until 17th level's Extra Blast (four blasts vs. 2 main hand attacks + 2 off-hand attacks when two-weapon fighting). The issue with two-weapon fighting is un(sheath) free object interactions to free a hand to cast spells with seen/somatic and material components, unless you have the Battle Caster feat to cast spells with V,S components. I agree with your comments about a ranged Eldritch Blast and Pact of the Blade for melee capability. That seems the most natural choice to go with, at the cost of not getting your magical melee weapon modifier from Pact of the Blade to attack/damage of ranged Eldritch Ray. Eldritch Scythe is good for melee attack of opportunity, scaling much better than an attack with a melee weapon at level 5+. Regarding 3., I think that your math on Eldritch Whip may be out-of-date vs. the more recent A5E version of Warlock's Eldritch Whip. In particular, the Warlock gets half the damage done by Eldritch Whip as temporary HP, and half of that as additional damage. So if you successfully hit each round, and add that up across rounds, at best you're getting +1/4 + 1/16 + 1/64 ... = +1/3 damage in the limit. However compared to Eldritch Scythe, Eldritch Whip doesn't benefit from magic weapon modifier to attack/damage, it does 1d6 instead of 1d8, and it doesn't do half damage to a target within reach, so it is clearly inferior in damage output to Eldritch Scythe assuming (1) you're within 5' to hit targets with Eldritch Scythe, and (2) you will sufficiently often have opportunity to do 1/2 damage to a target within reach with Eldritch Scythe. And in any case, Eldritch Whip doesn't get that much extra damage across rounds, as you miss sometimes, want to cast a spell instead of attacking, etc. The only major benefits that I see from Eldritch Whip are the 15' attack range, the temporary HP if you had none or few temporary HP, and the paralyzation with Eldritch Bind. So one option to make good use of it is to whack opponents in melee, and then every so often flick others at 15' range with your Eldritch Whip, say to push them back 10' with Repelling Blast or to pull them into melee with Eldritch Tentacle. Situationally, Eldritch Whip can be useful, I just think it is not that often where it has a clear benefit. Regarding 4., I think one of the most important uses for Eldritch Disturbance at higher levels is with Eldritch Riposte. Eldritch Disturbance does more damage with Eldritch Riposte than Eldritch Ray, because the target takes half damage if they make their save, and because you're not making a ranged spell attack with disadvantage vs. a melee opponent. --- IMHO, I think your best option may be something like this: [LIST] [*]Eldritch Disturbance at 1st level [*]Eldritch Warrior at 2nd level to get martial weapon proficiency and significantly improved AC [*]Eldritch Riposte at 3rd level to bump damage output, at the cost of spell points to power it [*]Thirsting Blade at level 5 if you intend to use melee/ranged weapons to deal damage [*]Eldritch Ray at level 5+ with Versatile Blast [*]Lifedrinker to increase damage with your pact weapon, or Eldritch Scythe at level 5+ with a second choice of Versatile Blast at a later point. [*]Agonizing Blast at level 6 as your Eldritch Evolution [*]Repelling Blast is good to pick up, as is Eldritch Tentacle if you like to melee your opponents. [*]And don't bother with Eldritch Whip, as it is seldom worth it. [*]At very high levels, particularly level 17+, drop Lifedrinker and Thirsting Blade, and pick up other Eldritch Invocations, as Eldritch Blast is best now. [/LIST] The "frustration" for me as a player who likes game mechanics, is that it takes a fair bit of analysis and deep understanding of the trade-offs before coming to this conclusion. Most players aren't going to understand the trade-offs at this level of detail, at least without reading someone else's analysis to get to that conclusion. And taking Versatile Blast twice to pick up the other Eldritch Blast types does have an opportunity cost - you're missing out on other very good Eldritch Invocations. Obviously, for different builds your best choices vary. And if you're multi-classed to get medium armor proficiency, have high Dexterity to get good AC with light armor, or have Pact of the Blade, you may skip Eldritch Warrior. If you're not playing a Dread Knight, Hexblade, or similar melee Warlock build with shield, martial weapons, and medium/heavy armor proficiency, I think that melee Warlocks have a glass jaw due to lower AC (no shield) and lower HP than other classes that can be much more melee-oriented like Berserker, Druid wild-shaper, Fighter, Herald, Marshal, Ranger, and Rogue. For that reason, I think that trying to create a melee Warlock can often be a bit of a suboptimal trap ... Hence Eldritch Scythe and two-weapon fighting can be subpar, and you either want a reach weapon (Eldritch Whip?) or Eldritch Ray/Disturbance to attack at a distance. The argument for Eldritch Whip may come down to a reach weapon making good sense for a Warlock to reduce damage by not being directly in melee, but then why not just use Eldritch Ray? [/QUOTE]
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