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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6677857" data-attributes="member: 20323">Words I live by: &quot;If you're going to passionately disagree, you should at least try to be entertaining&quot; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Ah, I get you now. Bilbo, Gray Mouser, Gord, Shadowjack...yeah you have a point.Legacy-wise, I understand where this comes from. It still seems a curious double standard to hold fighters to a certain expectation of conforming to reality and then give rogues a &quot;free pass.&quot; Er, it's not that it seems like a double standard, it IS a double standard.Hmm. Given that it's clear you like the game to intrude as little as possible into the story/setting flavor of your worlds, I'm surprised D&amp;D is your go-to game. I'd have thought GURPS or something equally versatile and class-less would be more appealing. Is it a case of &quot;the other players want to play D&amp;D&quot;?In a party of murder-hobos? Who would bat an eye? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />So I imagine you don't like all rogues being given Thieves' Cant at 1st level then?Well, when you put it like that, yes, yes that makes sense. Wait, did you say &quot;flim flam&quot;?I'm curious. You want sub-classes with all or most flavour stripped away. How would you have done the wizard sub-classes? Would you have done sub-classes at all?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6677857, member: 20323"] Words I live by: "If you're going to passionately disagree, you should at least try to be entertaining" :) Ah, I get you now. Bilbo, Gray Mouser, Gord, Shadowjack...yeah you have a point. Legacy-wise, I understand where this comes from. It still seems a curious double standard to hold fighters to a certain expectation of conforming to reality and then give rogues a "free pass." Er, it's not that it seems like a double standard, it IS a double standard. Hmm. Given that it's clear you like the game to intrude as little as possible into the story/setting flavor of your worlds, I'm surprised D&D is your go-to game. I'd have thought GURPS or something equally versatile and class-less would be more appealing. Is it a case of "the other players want to play D&D"? In a party of murder-hobos? Who would bat an eye? ;) So I imagine you don't like all rogues being given Thieves' Cant at 1st level then? Well, when you put it like that, yes, yes that makes sense. Wait, did you say "flim flam"? I'm curious. You want sub-classes with all or most flavour stripped away. How would you have done the wizard sub-classes? Would you have done sub-classes at all? [/QUOTE]

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