Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Million Dollar TTRPG Crowdfunders
Most Anticipated Tabletop RPGs Of The Year
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
ShortQuests -- Pocket Sized Adventures! An all-new collection of digest-sized D&D adventures designed for 1-2 game sessions.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Threatened squares and weapons in hand
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Zaruthustran" data-source="post: 1107302" data-attributes="member: 1457"><p>Your "use a longbow as a club" and "use a loaded sling as a sap" ideas are neat. But they're not in the rules, and this is the rules forum. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Therefore, I'll stick to your original questions, and answer with the rules and the rules alone.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>“can make a melee attack” simply means that the character, at the time of the action that caused the AoO, can make a melee attack into the square in question. </p><p></p><p>That's pretty clear.</p><p></p><p>Examples: </p><p>If you're a Medium size creature with a longsword you threaten all adjacent squares because you can make a melee attack into all adjacent squares.</p><p></p><p>If you're a Medium size creature wielding a longbow and wearing armor with armor spikes (not spiked gauntlets) you threaten all adjacent squares because you can make a melee attack with armor spikes. </p><p></p><p>If you're a Medium size creature wielding a longbow you do not threaten any adjacent squares because you cannot make a melee attack with a longbow.</p><p></p><p>I guess you could argue with your DM that the thin, flexible, light wood of a bow could be used as a weapon (maybe for 1 point of damage and no Str bonus?). That's a judgement call for the DM to make, under the Improvised Weapons rule on page 113. I think you'd have better luck using a crossbow as a club; a bow is too thin to be an effective melee bludgeoning weapon, and if you stabbed someone with it it'd just bend--that's what bows are designed to do, after all. But the <u>rules</u> leave improvised weapons up to the individual DM.</p><p></p><p>But do note that using a longbow as a melee weapon means that you're NOT using it as a ranged weapon. You'd have to change your grip at the very least. And that should take a free action at the least. Alas, the rules aren't explicitly there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Being hostile is not enough. If you are not armed (and you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike) then you don't threaten. Quick Draw doesn't help at all. Here's a test: ask the question "Can the character, at the time of the action that potentially provokes the AoO, make a melee attack into the square in question?" If the answer is "yes" then you threaten. If the answer is not "yes" then you do not threaten. <strong>Note that "Well, if he drew a weapon with Quick Draw..." is not "yes."</strong> </p><p></p><p>"Armed" is clearly <em>not</em> the same as "able to become armed very quickly."</p><p></p><p>Example:</p><p>DM: The orc runs between the two of you, potentially drawing an AoO.</p><p>Player1: I have my sword out, so I take that AoO. </p><p>DM: Okay. Player2?</p><p>Player2: My sword is in my sheath. So first I take a Free Action to Quick Draw my sword, then--</p><p>DM: Nope. There's no "first" or "then." Can you make a melee attack--<em>right now</em>--without first taking some other sort of action?</p><p>Player2: Er, no.</p><p>DM: Well, then no AoO for you.</p><p></p><p>Why not allow free action as part of an AoO? The rules simply don't allow for it. And, what's more, it opens up for abuse. Here's another example:</p><p></p><p>DM: The orc runs between the two of you. AoOs?</p><p>Player1: I have my sword out, so I take my AoO. And as a free action I cast a quickened Prayer spell.</p><p>Player2: I don't have my sword out. So I take a free action to quickdraw my greatsword, swing at him--</p><p>Player1: Don't forget the bonus from my Prayer!</p><p>Player2: Oh yeah, I swing <em>with</em> the bonus from the quickened Prayer, then after I swing I take a free action to drop the sword, then as a free action I quickdraw my longspear from my Quiver of Ehlonna so that he'll provoke another AoO as he continues past me.</p><p>DM: You guys suck.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's find out. The SRD says "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack." On page 112 of the PHB it says "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." A bow is a projectile weapon. A bow is not effective in melee. You cannot make a melee atack with a bow. So, you do not threaten adjacent squares--for the purpose of taking an AOO, or for any other purpose.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, holding a bow does not preclude the possibility of making a melee attack and hence threatening a square. While it's true that "you need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size", you can threaten with other weapons that are not worn or carried in your hands. Example: armor spikes (knee spike, foot spike, shoulder spike, whatever) or unarmed strike (head butt, kick, knee, whatever). </p><p></p><p>Hope that helps!</p><p></p><p>-z</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zaruthustran, post: 1107302, member: 1457"] Your "use a longbow as a club" and "use a loaded sling as a sap" ideas are neat. But they're not in the rules, and this is the rules forum. :) Therefore, I'll stick to your original questions, and answer with the rules and the rules alone. “can make a melee attack” simply means that the character, at the time of the action that caused the AoO, can make a melee attack into the square in question. That's pretty clear. Examples: If you're a Medium size creature with a longsword you threaten all adjacent squares because you can make a melee attack into all adjacent squares. If you're a Medium size creature wielding a longbow and wearing armor with armor spikes (not spiked gauntlets) you threaten all adjacent squares because you can make a melee attack with armor spikes. If you're a Medium size creature wielding a longbow you do not threaten any adjacent squares because you cannot make a melee attack with a longbow. I guess you could argue with your DM that the thin, flexible, light wood of a bow could be used as a weapon (maybe for 1 point of damage and no Str bonus?). That's a judgement call for the DM to make, under the Improvised Weapons rule on page 113. I think you'd have better luck using a crossbow as a club; a bow is too thin to be an effective melee bludgeoning weapon, and if you stabbed someone with it it'd just bend--that's what bows are designed to do, after all. But the [u]rules[/u] leave improvised weapons up to the individual DM. But do note that using a longbow as a melee weapon means that you're NOT using it as a ranged weapon. You'd have to change your grip at the very least. And that should take a free action at the least. Alas, the rules aren't explicitly there. Being hostile is not enough. If you are not armed (and you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike) then you don't threaten. Quick Draw doesn't help at all. Here's a test: ask the question "Can the character, at the time of the action that potentially provokes the AoO, make a melee attack into the square in question?" If the answer is "yes" then you threaten. If the answer is not "yes" then you do not threaten. [b]Note that "Well, if he drew a weapon with Quick Draw..." is not "yes."[/b] "Armed" is clearly [i]not[/i] the same as "able to become armed very quickly." Example: DM: The orc runs between the two of you, potentially drawing an AoO. Player1: I have my sword out, so I take that AoO. DM: Okay. Player2? Player2: My sword is in my sheath. So first I take a Free Action to Quick Draw my sword, then-- DM: Nope. There's no "first" or "then." Can you make a melee attack--[i]right now[/i]--without first taking some other sort of action? Player2: Er, no. DM: Well, then no AoO for you. Why not allow free action as part of an AoO? The rules simply don't allow for it. And, what's more, it opens up for abuse. Here's another example: DM: The orc runs between the two of you. AoOs? Player1: I have my sword out, so I take my AoO. And as a free action I cast a quickened Prayer spell. Player2: I don't have my sword out. So I take a free action to quickdraw my greatsword, swing at him-- Player1: Don't forget the bonus from my Prayer! Player2: Oh yeah, I swing [i]with[/i] the bonus from the quickened Prayer, then after I swing I take a free action to drop the sword, then as a free action I quickdraw my longspear from my Quiver of Ehlonna so that he'll provoke another AoO as he continues past me. DM: You guys suck. Let's find out. The SRD says "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack." On page 112 of the PHB it says "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." A bow is a projectile weapon. A bow is not effective in melee. You cannot make a melee atack with a bow. So, you do not threaten adjacent squares--for the purpose of taking an AOO, or for any other purpose. No, holding a bow does not preclude the possibility of making a melee attack and hence threatening a square. While it's true that "you need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size", you can threaten with other weapons that are not worn or carried in your hands. Example: armor spikes (knee spike, foot spike, shoulder spike, whatever) or unarmed strike (head butt, kick, knee, whatever). Hope that helps! -z [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Threatened squares and weapons in hand
Top