Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 3481000" data-attributes="member: 9789">Yeah, this one is so easy to do but it just doesn't fix enough.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />That's an interesting thought:  maximized.  It would be much more powerful than x2, and more powerful overall especially given that the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC is so prevalent and it gives tons of greater turning for just 1 level dip.  However, it's much closer to the intent of greater turning, I believe.The problem again is that 1/2 cleric level will saves for undead are easy, and if you allow a full turn resistance bonus to their save, it becomes trivial.  Very few turn-resistant undead will ever be affected, even when the cleric is a much higher level than their CR.  Generally speaking, turning undead with turn resistance should be very difficult at the correct CR, but somewhat easy 3 or 4 levels above the CR.  Good saves are (base) 1/2 level +2, so adding 4 to a save is HUGE.I must admit, that's the one mechanic I have no desire to even flesh out.  I am completely against making turns into spells for all the reasons you've listed.  I know a lot of folks on these boards think that clerics (and druids) are overpowered, but this is far too big of a hit.Interesting, but far less useful than direct damage or cowering undead.  Essentially, you're either going to do enough Cha damage to turn them into an object, or you won't.  That means multiple turns with no appreciable effect, followed by one big bang.  I'd rather have something that scaled a little better, like damage or cowering.I think that's a good idea, but it is certainly very different than most other mechanics.  It would probably be more "even" overall, however, since low CR undead tend to have tons of HD (far more than their CR) and high CR undead tend to have fewer (thus requiring turn resistance).  But then you get into the issue of "what to do for fractional CR" and stuff like that.  HD is simpler, even if it is less effective.Actually, these comments have given me an idea:  what if we take 2. above and change it so that the DC is 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + 2 + Cha.  That would make it so that the contest was really between the cleric's Cha and the Undead's bonus to Will, which seems good.  On the other hand, this is still slightly problematic due to the fact that most undead have more HD than CR, and the ones who are even close to even all have turn resistance.  (In fact, that seems to be a requirement for making an undead creature:  if HD is close to CR, +2 turn resist; if HD < CR, +4.)Also, of course, if you're just going for the +2 thing, why not just make it a synergy bonus from Knowledge(religion) like it is now?  That skill is a cleric mainstay, but it basically means that those who take it can turn, and those who don't will have a really hard time turning.What if 2. were re-written thusly:Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/cleric level + Cha modifier to all undead within 30’ of the cleric with line of effect.  Affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 cleric’s level + Cha modifier) for half damage.  Evil clerics heal undead the same amount instead, or they may chose to rebuke undead, which causes all undead that fail their will save to cower for 1 minute.  Incorporeal creatures do not get a 50% miss chance against this damage.  The Sun domain power Greater Turning causes any undead that fail their will save to be destroyed.If a good cleric has at least twice as many cleric levels as an undead creature has hit dice and the undead creature fails its will save, it is destroyed.  Evil clerics chosing to rebuke undead who have twice as many cleric levels as an undead instead command it on a failed save.  (See rules for commanding undead for more details and limits.)Undead with turn resistance add half their turn resistance bonus to their Will saves against turning or rebuking attempts, and subtract twice their turn resistance from the damage they take (evil clerics' healing attempts are not reduced).  They also add their turn resistance to their effective number of HD to determine if they are destroyed or commanded.Abilties or items that affect a cleric’s effective turning level function normally, and increase both the save DC and the damage as appropriate for a higher level cleric. Abilties or items that affect a cleric’s turning damage are applied to the damage, as normal.Special:  5 ranks in Knowledge(religion) gives a +2 synergy bonus to the DC of the cleric's turn attempt.Advantages:  Much closer to the existing system; everything works along standard D&D lines.  And if you just leave out the line about "destroying" things with zero HP on a normal turn, you fix the whole "vampires can still escape" clause!Disadvantages:  Greater Turning should either be a "save or die" or do max damage.  I'm still not sure which, but I'm afraid "save or die" might be too much (although technically now it is like a save or die, and the range is being halved).  Turn resistance is still a hard one to balance.  I'm still not sure if it should increase their ability to save or just reduce damage, or if it should be both.  The problem is that it almost has to increase their will save, or else Greater Turning can kill things too easily.  And it should also reduce their damage, since they're going to take damage no matter what.  Tricky and hard to balance.Thanks for the comments!   Keep 'em coming.</blockquote>

Verification