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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mkill" data-source="post: 5796181" data-attributes="member: 55985">I agree. The funny thing is, I felt that 4E achieved this. It had Fighter, Rogue, Ranger and Warlord. Each of them had interesting and flavorful abilities, and none of them cast spells.(Yes, I know someone will complain that these abilities didn't feel different enough from spells. All I can answer to that is that they weren't magical or spells, nothing in the book said they were spells, and nobody in our games ever pretended they were spells. At our table, they were "I smack it with my sword this and that way". So yeah.)I hope that 5E Fighters, Rogues, Rangers and Warlords will be able to pull off similar cool stuff as their 4E counterparts. It can be by default, it can be a build option, it can use completely different mechanics - I don't care. I want the same result.If 5E goes back to AD&D "want to do something cool? cast a spell!" I won't touch it with a 10-foot pole.I think 4E rituals were originally meant to be that, but didn't deliver at the table. I agree that D&D needs a certain amount of odd and wacky spells and items, like the Apparatus of Kwalish (sp?). Doesn't have to be more than 10%, doesn't have to be all the in the core books, but it has to be there.Magic items and their endless repetition of useless daily powers (another d6 extra damage *yawn*) was my biggest disappointment with 4E.Ugh, deal breaker for me.If you want to build a character that's weak in combat - fine. But don't force that down the throat of an entire class. If you split the game in three elements - combat, social interaction, and exploration than each class should be able to contribute.That doesn't mean you need each class to conform to a standard damage output per round. That doesn't mean combat roles need to be as strictly defined as they were in 4E. "Everyone contributes" means that if you have a 5 PC party, this party should only be 80% powerful of you remove one PC. This 20% can be anything - from BMX tricks to summoning angels. It can be smacking them with a sword in the frontline round by round, or it can be hiding in the shadows, aiming for the perfect shot to the heart. But it has to be there.Same with the other areas - I don't want another 3E fighter with piddly skill points, the least number of class skills, only one skill each tied to his main abilities Str and Con, and nothing else. There are tons of ways to make a Fighter useful outside of combat. Don't make the PC give up combat skill to be better at the other areas (as hinted in the seminar).  Build these into the class, at no extra cost.</blockquote>

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