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D&D Older Editions
Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6797687" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yeah, THAT sort of thing is fairly system-independent, though 4e certainly has a good skill system to help mediate it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, its true, PCs have perfect 'presence of mind', at least in most systems such as D&D. You COULD enact a sort of 'fog of war' kind of thing using limited information, but it would be a little weird, more suited to systems like DW that are pretty abstract and lack mechanics covering positioning and whatnot.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The skill challenge is not bad. My other observation is that there is both tactical and OPERATIONAL levels of surprise. The latter is just as important and 4e can certainly handle THAT. In other words getting the jump on the orcs guarding the entrance is one thing, they're likely to be wary, they're certainly armed, and maybe at best you reduce them to a minor threat by a totally unexpected attack. The ORC LAIR ITSELF is another thing. How many of the orcs are awake? How many have weapons and armor to hand? How many are even present in the lair when you make your assault? How effectively do they rally and how quickly can they muster their forces, identify the axis of the attack, determine its strength and nature, and mount an effective response? If you're FAST ENOUGH and achieved tactical surprise at the entrance, well, they might not really offer a ton of resistance overall. So an attentive DM can manage that aspect of things to provide decision points and incorporate tactical thinking. 4e certainly CAN handle that, though D&D traditionally has shied away from this whole aspect due again to the wide range of challenge level that might result depending on good or bad choices. </p><p></p><p>I guess I tend to be a DM that isn't shy of this. If you choose badly, it hurts! Maybe you do go down in defeat. OTOH I've played with the same group for a LONG time mostly, and they don't make a lot of obvious mistakes. </p><p></p><p>A related thing that'd be cool is some meaningful 'covered' condition. The old sword to the throat or held at gunpoint, another trope D&D has never done well. Just having to weather an attack is not much of a threat to most D&D characters. But if they can get the drop on you, maybe they can do a /lot/ of damage (like you are reduced to your bloodied value, /then/ take a critical hit), unless you (or something) distracts them or gives you a chance to change the situation. In 4e, that'd be a fair thing to declare when you've reduced an enemy to 0 - you've forced a surrender and have them at swordpoint, or something along those line. But dropping to 0 is not that likely without focus fire.</p></blockquote><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6797687, member: 82106"] Yeah, THAT sort of thing is fairly system-independent, though 4e certainly has a good skill system to help mediate it. Well, its true, PCs have perfect 'presence of mind', at least in most systems such as D&D. You COULD enact a sort of 'fog of war' kind of thing using limited information, but it would be a little weird, more suited to systems like DW that are pretty abstract and lack mechanics covering positioning and whatnot. The skill challenge is not bad. My other observation is that there is both tactical and OPERATIONAL levels of surprise. The latter is just as important and 4e can certainly handle THAT. In other words getting the jump on the orcs guarding the entrance is one thing, they're likely to be wary, they're certainly armed, and maybe at best you reduce them to a minor threat by a totally unexpected attack. The ORC LAIR ITSELF is another thing. How many of the orcs are awake? How many have weapons and armor to hand? How many are even present in the lair when you make your assault? How effectively do they rally and how quickly can they muster their forces, identify the axis of the attack, determine its strength and nature, and mount an effective response? If you're FAST ENOUGH and achieved tactical surprise at the entrance, well, they might not really offer a ton of resistance overall. So an attentive DM can manage that aspect of things to provide decision points and incorporate tactical thinking. 4e certainly CAN handle that, though D&D traditionally has shied away from this whole aspect due again to the wide range of challenge level that might result depending on good or bad choices. I guess I tend to be a DM that isn't shy of this. If you choose badly, it hurts! Maybe you do go down in defeat. OTOH I've played with the same group for a LONG time mostly, and they don't make a lot of obvious mistakes. A related thing that'd be cool is some meaningful 'covered' condition. The old sword to the throat or held at gunpoint, another trope D&D has never done well. Just having to weather an attack is not much of a threat to most D&D characters. But if they can get the drop on you, maybe they can do a /lot/ of damage (like you are reduced to your bloodied value, /then/ take a critical hit), unless you (or something) distracts them or gives you a chance to change the situation. In 4e, that'd be a fair thing to declare when you've reduced an enemy to 0 - you've forced a surrender and have them at swordpoint, or something along those line. But dropping to 0 is not that likely without focus fire.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
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