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Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6967594" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I dunno, I can only say that my experiences with 1e, in particular, were that each humanoid type was encountered one after the other. First you fought some kobolds, then some goblins, then some orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, and finally ogres, then you start into the more idiosyncratic types, trolls, hill giants, etc. I guess a DM could carry that forward G-module-style through the hill, stone, frost, fire, and finally cloud and storm giants, and end with titans if he wanted to. I guess you could add in Verbeeg and Fomorians, probably a few others too if you want to dig into MM2 and other more obscure sources. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, most 1e games eschewed at least some of these steps, mostly because the increments between kobold and hobgoblin are all pretty small (kobold is 1/2 hit die, goblin is 1D-1, orc is 1D, and Hobgoblin is 1D+1). Kobolds and goblins are 'special' in that fighters get to do 1 attack/level on them, making them very much cannon-fodder for anyone above about 3rd level. Differences between orcs and hobs are pretty trivial though IIRC, though an extra hit point can make hobs a bit tougher and 1+1 does get a 1 better attack table column. Gnolls are the toughest M size humanoid, which oddly means their 2D+2 is actually BETTER in most respects than the 3D+3 of the bugbear (but bugbears do get stealth, and a lot of spells are bounded by hit dice). Gnolls also use the same attack table column as bugbears.</p><p></p><p>You'll also see an AC progression in 1e humanoids, Kobolds are like AC7, goblins AC6, orcs AC6, hobs are AC5. Everything beyond that kinda stalls around AC5 though, until you get to the AC4 troll. Note that to-hit progression is also basically +1 per monster with a few wrinkles. Its also notable that after the ogre the gaps get larger in hit dice, trolls are 6+6, but proportionately the increases are similar. </p><p></p><p>Overall its a pretty highly structured panoply. I'd further note that none of these types up to trolls has any real special ability, except bugbears stealth. Ogres have huge strength, but it doesn't really give them much. So its a VERY structured and set progression! Humanoid 'bosses' don't even break it really, as they too have no real special abilities. DMG adds in an option for shamans/witch doctors, but that isn't present in MM1, at least explicitly. </p><p></p><p>So, I can't support any contention that 1e isn't the champion of the 'humanoid ladder'. 4e, IME, barely has such a thing by comparison. I mean, sure, you could hit each type of humanoid starting at level 1 and work up, their base figure types are level 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9 (for the 1e types listed above). A few other types are interjected though, and the 4e types follow the level based AC and to-hit progression. Given there are multiples of each type that overlap in levels its hard to even see easily how to NOT mix the types in actual encounters (you can get away with using all the types of some humanoids together at a few levels, but some are scattered over an 8 level range!). Given the way 4e encourages and leans on modding and expanding different monsters its even hard to say for sure that one race is 'lower level' than another, since there are definitely kobolds in various books ranging all the way up to at least 8th level (where ogres start).</p><p></p><p>4e also moved the less canonical humanoids around a good bit. Trogs are pretty low level (2 hit dice) in 1e, but they're 7th+ level monsters in 4e, almost on a par with trolls and ogres.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6967594, member: 82106"] I dunno, I can only say that my experiences with 1e, in particular, were that each humanoid type was encountered one after the other. First you fought some kobolds, then some goblins, then some orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, and finally ogres, then you start into the more idiosyncratic types, trolls, hill giants, etc. I guess a DM could carry that forward G-module-style through the hill, stone, frost, fire, and finally cloud and storm giants, and end with titans if he wanted to. I guess you could add in Verbeeg and Fomorians, probably a few others too if you want to dig into MM2 and other more obscure sources. Anyway, most 1e games eschewed at least some of these steps, mostly because the increments between kobold and hobgoblin are all pretty small (kobold is 1/2 hit die, goblin is 1D-1, orc is 1D, and Hobgoblin is 1D+1). Kobolds and goblins are 'special' in that fighters get to do 1 attack/level on them, making them very much cannon-fodder for anyone above about 3rd level. Differences between orcs and hobs are pretty trivial though IIRC, though an extra hit point can make hobs a bit tougher and 1+1 does get a 1 better attack table column. Gnolls are the toughest M size humanoid, which oddly means their 2D+2 is actually BETTER in most respects than the 3D+3 of the bugbear (but bugbears do get stealth, and a lot of spells are bounded by hit dice). Gnolls also use the same attack table column as bugbears. You'll also see an AC progression in 1e humanoids, Kobolds are like AC7, goblins AC6, orcs AC6, hobs are AC5. Everything beyond that kinda stalls around AC5 though, until you get to the AC4 troll. Note that to-hit progression is also basically +1 per monster with a few wrinkles. Its also notable that after the ogre the gaps get larger in hit dice, trolls are 6+6, but proportionately the increases are similar. Overall its a pretty highly structured panoply. I'd further note that none of these types up to trolls has any real special ability, except bugbears stealth. Ogres have huge strength, but it doesn't really give them much. So its a VERY structured and set progression! Humanoid 'bosses' don't even break it really, as they too have no real special abilities. DMG adds in an option for shamans/witch doctors, but that isn't present in MM1, at least explicitly. So, I can't support any contention that 1e isn't the champion of the 'humanoid ladder'. 4e, IME, barely has such a thing by comparison. I mean, sure, you could hit each type of humanoid starting at level 1 and work up, their base figure types are level 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9 (for the 1e types listed above). A few other types are interjected though, and the 4e types follow the level based AC and to-hit progression. Given there are multiples of each type that overlap in levels its hard to even see easily how to NOT mix the types in actual encounters (you can get away with using all the types of some humanoids together at a few levels, but some are scattered over an 8 level range!). Given the way 4e encourages and leans on modding and expanding different monsters its even hard to say for sure that one race is 'lower level' than another, since there are definitely kobolds in various books ranging all the way up to at least 8th level (where ogres start). 4e also moved the less canonical humanoids around a good bit. Trogs are pretty low level (2 hit dice) in 1e, but they're 7th+ level monsters in 4e, almost on a par with trolls and ogres. [/QUOTE]
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