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Throwing ideas, seeing what sticks (and what stinks)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7396576" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>The problem with 'classic' D&D/3.x and magic items is that the bad guys MUST have them to be a true threat, at which point the PCs WILL have them when they win (which they pretty much must or else you don't have a game). This is the problem that 4e's technique is intended to solve. Monsters 'stand alone', they're fearsome and fully capable of holding their own, with their abilities built-in, so they just don't need items! </p><p></p><p>IMHO the problem of 'character over items' is a red herring. The problem is when characters are NOTHING BUT items, not when a few items are vital to their success at times (or incrementally useful all the time like magic armor/NAD items). IN TOTAL the goal may not have been completely achieved, but it was CERTAINLY achieved in one respect. Let me give an example:</p><p></p><p>I have a 14th level Wizard character in 2e (was a 1e character). He has a Staff of The Magi, a Displacer Cloak, and a Robe of Eyes, and Wings of Flying. Everything else about the character, mechanically, is built on this combination of items. His spell selection, contents of spell books, his choices of other minor defensive items, which scrolls and potions he's chosen to create, etc. ALL of it is based on having this specific combination of items and thus the mechanical advantages and limitations which flow specifically from his use of them. Tangling with ultra-powerful beings in 2e is a tricky tricky thing, even for 14th level PCs, and thus when taking on something like Demogorgon, the exact interactions of all these elements has to be perfect! The character is, in effect, mechanically determined by his item selection.</p><p></p><p>No 4e PC is so completely constrained in this way. I mean, sure, you might need a Frost Brand in order to put the cherry on top of your Frost Cheese combo build, but you could get cold damage another way, or simply use some other tactics. Because everything is measured in terms of damage, and not 'gotcha!' SOD effects, and defenses etc. are all fairly consistent its not such a huge big deal to have one specific 'kit', and you don't need to build your character's 'shtick' around an item (like the Staff of The Magi in my example, this is a crazy 'shtick forming' item). </p><p></p><p>I certainly cannot say your other 'wants' are wrong, that would be silly, but I wonder why you have some of them? I mean, 6 and 7 particularly, what is the point? I mean, every caster can have an implement, most of those need not be magical, same for weapons. I mean, IF you are wanting to portray a world where every guy has magic items, and they're just commonplace, then OK I get it. If not, and I think the desire to 'make magic special' is likely to be more consistent with this, then why do it? Why have every orc boss swinging +N magic sword? There's only one of 2 possible outcomes here</p><p>1. The PCs will soon be flush with these really cool magic swords, at which point they will not be cool anymore.</p><p>2. Magic swords will just be humdrum and nobody will care. </p><p></p><p>You cannot have both 'items are special' and 'monsters constantly use items', the two are not consistent with each other.</p><p></p><p>As for 8, again, either items aren't that important and are thus fairly humdrum, or else they are and you cannot achieve this while having them be all over the place.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think most of this is consistent with my experience. I think one way to handle this sort of issue is to have a lot of consumables. 4e was weak in the area of consumables. The game devalues prep and thus took a hard line on the power available in a consumable. The whole budgetary nature of items also work against their use, psychologically. Add to that the ease of actually making them by baseline 4e rules (pre-errata) and you have a problem.</p><p></p><p>However, making consumables MOST of the focus of the magic item economy, and making a lot of them basically sort of 'bottled rituals' and whatnot could be an answer. Leave the permanent stuff to the inherent bonuses and to more 'artifact like' kinds of things mostly. There COULD be a 'magic sword' that's part of the story, but it should be mostly a story item. Its powers may even be 'one time' kinds of things, perhaps not even under PC control!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7396576, member: 82106"] The problem with 'classic' D&D/3.x and magic items is that the bad guys MUST have them to be a true threat, at which point the PCs WILL have them when they win (which they pretty much must or else you don't have a game). This is the problem that 4e's technique is intended to solve. Monsters 'stand alone', they're fearsome and fully capable of holding their own, with their abilities built-in, so they just don't need items! IMHO the problem of 'character over items' is a red herring. The problem is when characters are NOTHING BUT items, not when a few items are vital to their success at times (or incrementally useful all the time like magic armor/NAD items). IN TOTAL the goal may not have been completely achieved, but it was CERTAINLY achieved in one respect. Let me give an example: I have a 14th level Wizard character in 2e (was a 1e character). He has a Staff of The Magi, a Displacer Cloak, and a Robe of Eyes, and Wings of Flying. Everything else about the character, mechanically, is built on this combination of items. His spell selection, contents of spell books, his choices of other minor defensive items, which scrolls and potions he's chosen to create, etc. ALL of it is based on having this specific combination of items and thus the mechanical advantages and limitations which flow specifically from his use of them. Tangling with ultra-powerful beings in 2e is a tricky tricky thing, even for 14th level PCs, and thus when taking on something like Demogorgon, the exact interactions of all these elements has to be perfect! The character is, in effect, mechanically determined by his item selection. No 4e PC is so completely constrained in this way. I mean, sure, you might need a Frost Brand in order to put the cherry on top of your Frost Cheese combo build, but you could get cold damage another way, or simply use some other tactics. Because everything is measured in terms of damage, and not 'gotcha!' SOD effects, and defenses etc. are all fairly consistent its not such a huge big deal to have one specific 'kit', and you don't need to build your character's 'shtick' around an item (like the Staff of The Magi in my example, this is a crazy 'shtick forming' item). I certainly cannot say your other 'wants' are wrong, that would be silly, but I wonder why you have some of them? I mean, 6 and 7 particularly, what is the point? I mean, every caster can have an implement, most of those need not be magical, same for weapons. I mean, IF you are wanting to portray a world where every guy has magic items, and they're just commonplace, then OK I get it. If not, and I think the desire to 'make magic special' is likely to be more consistent with this, then why do it? Why have every orc boss swinging +N magic sword? There's only one of 2 possible outcomes here 1. The PCs will soon be flush with these really cool magic swords, at which point they will not be cool anymore. 2. Magic swords will just be humdrum and nobody will care. You cannot have both 'items are special' and 'monsters constantly use items', the two are not consistent with each other. As for 8, again, either items aren't that important and are thus fairly humdrum, or else they are and you cannot achieve this while having them be all over the place. I think most of this is consistent with my experience. I think one way to handle this sort of issue is to have a lot of consumables. 4e was weak in the area of consumables. The game devalues prep and thus took a hard line on the power available in a consumable. The whole budgetary nature of items also work against their use, psychologically. Add to that the ease of actually making them by baseline 4e rules (pre-errata) and you have a problem. However, making consumables MOST of the focus of the magic item economy, and making a lot of them basically sort of 'bottled rituals' and whatnot could be an answer. Leave the permanent stuff to the inherent bonuses and to more 'artifact like' kinds of things mostly. There COULD be a 'magic sword' that's part of the story, but it should be mostly a story item. Its powers may even be 'one time' kinds of things, perhaps not even under PC control! [/QUOTE]
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