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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5698029" data-attributes="member: 35909">Monks are one of the most item dependent classes in the game and VoP was a horrific trap option for them, more so than almost any other class.&nbsp; And you're thinking of PF VoP for the no real drawbacks in a party environment.&nbsp; Because in 3E, you had your share donated to charity.&nbsp; In PF, you just don't get your share, which means more loot for everyone else.&nbsp; THAT is the scenario PF VoP was &quot;balanced&quot; around.&nbsp; Being the party gimp.Grapple is no more dangerous to casters than 3E, the only exception is the ludicrously high concentration check DC you have for being grappled, which is poorly balanced in the exact opposite direction...&nbsp; You can still freedom of movement your way to immunity.&nbsp; On the other hand, grapple is a lot less dangerous for actually killing people, you can only make one grapple check per round now.&nbsp; Heck, in 3E you could easily get someone pinned in the same round you initiated the grapple.Yes, everyone does get more feats in PF.&nbsp; Keyword everyone.&nbsp; But it takes more feats to do the same things you could do in 3E for melee classes.&nbsp; Caster feats weren't divvied up like that.&nbsp; Ergo, casters effectively netted more feats than melee classes, who sort of ending up tredding water.&nbsp; Do you understand?And what I said in my post wasn't that this change was a bad thing (I actually went out of my way to state that wasn't what I was saying...).&nbsp; My point was that taking away cherry picking, dipping, and prestige classing in return for better base classes is the same end result, power-wise.&nbsp; In sum total, it was not a power boost for martial classes compared to 3E, you just don't have to jump through hoops anymore.&nbsp; Which is awesome.&nbsp; But it didn't actually strengthen martial characters much, which is what everyone claims.Like what?&nbsp; They got a few new skills like dungeoneering and survival... Still only 2 + int points and a dearth of social skills.&nbsp; All the Fighter's changes in PF just gave him bigger numbers in combat, which as I said long ago in my Fighter houserules thread (link in sig) is the one thing fighters did NOT need.&nbsp; Yeah, you can roleplay things without skill checks.&nbsp; You can do that in 3E as well.[sblock][/sblock]Of course, with all those personal attacks, you do a far better job of discrediting your arguments than my responses ever could.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 5698029, member: 35909"] Monks are one of the most item dependent classes in the game and VoP was a horrific trap option for them, more so than almost any other class. And you're thinking of PF VoP for the no real drawbacks in a party environment. Because in 3E, you had your share donated to charity. In PF, you just don't get your share, which means more loot for everyone else. THAT is the scenario PF VoP was "balanced" around. Being the party gimp. Grapple is no more dangerous to casters than 3E, the only exception is the ludicrously high concentration check DC you have for being grappled, which is poorly balanced in the exact opposite direction... You can still freedom of movement your way to immunity. On the other hand, grapple is a lot less dangerous for actually killing people, you can only make one grapple check per round now. Heck, in 3E you could easily get someone pinned in the same round you initiated the grapple. Yes, everyone does get more feats in PF. Keyword [i]everyone[/i]. But it takes more feats to do the same things you could do in 3E for melee classes. Caster feats weren't divvied up like that. Ergo, casters effectively netted more feats than melee classes, who sort of ending up tredding water. Do you understand? And what I said in my post wasn't that this change was a bad thing (I actually went out of my way to state that wasn't what I was saying...). My point was that taking away cherry picking, dipping, and prestige classing in return for better base classes is the same end result, power-wise. In sum total, it was not a power boost for martial classes compared to 3E, you just don't have to jump through hoops anymore. Which is awesome. But it didn't actually [i]strengthen[/i] martial characters much, which is what everyone claims. Like what? They got a few new skills like dungeoneering and survival... Still only 2 + int points and a dearth of social skills. All the Fighter's changes in PF just gave him bigger numbers in combat, which as I said long ago in my Fighter houserules thread (link in sig) is the one thing fighters did NOT need. Yeah, you can roleplay things without skill checks. You can do that in 3E as well. [sblock][/sblock] Of course, with all those personal attacks, you do a far better job of discrediting your arguments than my responses ever could. [/QUOTE]

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