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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7834957" data-attributes="member: 6750235">8d6 base one round IF you are managing to avoid friendly fire AND haven't used the spell slots already AND the bard went lore.  Heck, the bard might even do that twice in the entire day if he's lucky.  The 5th level rogue with 3d6 SA, 2d6 TWF, and +4 DEX is already approaching that a level earlier for the first round.Out of the 3 rounds in your example it's 8d6+4d10 vs 15d6+12.  The 5th level rogue still ends up ahead over those rounds of combat compared to your "damage build uber bard" 6th level bard when the rogue isn't even trying to come up with some "uber damage build".  The bard could fireball twice and then eldritch blast a 3rd round and edge out the rogue that one combat.  It's only really better at fodder damage a few times.I don't think you really comprehend how quickly you are going to blow through spell slots trying to white room gymnastics an attempt to prove the bard can keep up to the rogue with damage.  Fireball first round of 3 combats to try and compete with the rogue's damage.  Then what?  Shatter?  Cloud of daggers?  Just eldritch blast?  All that falls behind the rest of the time.Your build also gave up healing spirit or other healing spell to focus on damage, and slots to cast healing.  You might not realize it, but you are demonstrating my point when I say bards don't do everything.  They have options available in every direction but in the end they only actually have what they actually select.  You are selecting damage, and losing out in healing.  That's how it works.You said that's more damage than a 10th level rogue.  It wasn't more direct damage than the 5th level rogue aside from peripheral fodder (don't get me wrong, that is useful) but let's get back to 10th level.  The 3rd level fireball slots do the same damage, you have some 9d6 4th level slots, and you have some 10d6 5th level slots.  The bard has enough slots that he actually can fireball for the first round of a day's worth of encounters.  Still always  working around friendly fire.Now the lore bard also has hex because you  think you'll have it up all day.  The concentration mechanic locked out far more spells than the bard will ever add via secrets by never dropping hex but it's your scenario.  ;-)Now we're 10d6+4d10+4d6 vs 21d6+15 and the rogue is still going strong compared to the highest slots and .  At 11th level when that 3rd eldritch blast comes online (and sneak attack goes up and I'll even upcast to that lonely 6th level slot) we're at 11d6+6d10+6d6 vs 24d6+15  and the bard is still trailing behind.  Plus, he's not actually doing anything else.  His combats are all full of trying to blast damage so he's not applying control, status effects, or any other type of damage mitigation.  He might be out-of-combat healing by this point but skipped taking cleric support spells and can only apply low level slots (mostly 2nd level because maintaining hex).That's comparing your uber lore bard damage build to a basic before subclasses striker.  That bard is being played to be a jack-of-one-trade master-of-nothing to boot.  Before I move on, I'm going to burst your bubble a bit.  Everything the "uber" bard subclass did can be replicated by the "meh" bard subclass, as you put it.  That sets 14th level up for battle magic.  The valor bard will do the exact same damage plus the bonus attack damage in all 3 rounds and do significantly more damage than the lore bard.At this point you seem to be convincing yourself that bard blasters do good damage by comparing that damage to a rogue.Replace "rogue" with "warlock".  Your claim is that magical secrets is awesome powerful because it takes spells from other classes.  Well, eldritch blast came from warlock so hypothesis to the test we go.  For apples to apples it's the fiend patron to also poach fireball (because it's overpowered when a bard does it via secrets but not when any other spell caster does it consistency flaw).  2 short rest standard assumption just as you used earlier when you were trying to upsell bardic inspiration as spells.Right off the bat the warlock smokes the lore bard's ass with fireballs at the beginning of 6 encounters instead of the bard's 3 at 6th level so there's that.  The bard could not take fireball and eldritch blast and hex, and never had the option for agonizing blast.  I could write the obvious here but I probably don't need to.  "Poaching" that warlock cantrip left the bard far behind the warlock when they both use it and your scenario.  That's because the warlock chassis supports spell casting, which is what I pointed out.This looks even worse for the bard taking tome pact.  Adding guidance on a CHA class that can add skills and at-wills via invocations, and will have more rituals and cantrips than the bard on top of outclassing the bard in damage is what we're looking at here.  Making a bard who's trying to play like a warlock eldritch blaster is a pale imitation.Replace "rogue" with "sorcerer".  I don't want to get too repetitive here so I'll just cut to the sorcerer going red draconic for a damage base starts with elemental affinity damage bonus to the primary target on the fireballs and firebolt.  This leaves the bard behind at 6th level.  It gets a bit more complicated later because hex adds ~24 avg damage at 11th level vs 15 from affinity (as long as hex is up, anyway).  The lore bard example would be competitive at 10th level and better 11th level+ as long as the sorcerer isn't using metamagic.  The sorc wins out applying metamagic in the long run or in bursts, however, via empower and / or quicken.  A quickened fireball plus create bonfire maintains damage over time on top of subsequent firebolts leaves the bard in the dust if the target is immobilized somehow.  That's situational but uses with same concentration slot as hex without the 1st level spell slot for better damage than just another cantrip.  That's because the sorc chassis supports bursts and novas with spells.Replace "rogue" with "wizard".  It's a damage build comparison so evoker.  Sculpt spells already guarantees fireball is safe against friendly fire and will be used more often in actual game play.  Arcane recovery means more fireballs.  Right off the bat we're at more fireballs and more opportunities to use them.  At level 6 potent cantrip gives damage on a save to evocation cantrips so create bonfire just became more effective than firebolt.  This also has the situational advantage of damage over time if the target is immobilized somehow.  If this is the case the pro-tip is to switch it up and create bonfire first, then fireball, then firebolt.  That lets the bonfire damage stack all 3 rounds and also destroys your lore bard's system.  Without immobilization the bonfires can simply be recreated for full or half damage, plus INT bonus with empowered evocation.  Again, the wizard chassis supports better spellcasting.  The bard just has baseline spells.Compared to the 3 other arcane casters, the bard is ultimately behind as well.  Replicating the eldritch blast method of the warlock is way behind the warlock.  The point that was made about the bard was that they can be decent in a few areas.  Adding a damage option doesn't mean that damage option is good, and all your example does is shows a decent damage option while doing almost nothing else with combat actions or spell slots.Replace "rogue" with "druid".  Druids are pretty much in the same boat as bards when it comes to damage.  They have a few more options in the spell list for damage but the chassis supports exploration and wildshaping instead of spells.  Like bards, they tend toward the lower side of damage.  They do, however, still get create bonfire for a decent damage cantrip.  At 1st through 5th level the druid has better damage options than the lore bard in cantrips and spells.  At 6th through 9th level there's no significant difference between going mountain circle to poach lightning bolt and primal savagery other than range, and is more likely to go with create bonfire.Natural recovery still gives more castings of lightning bolt, and the situational damage at 10th level going create bonfire, lightning bolt, produce flame is a possible combo because the bonus cantrip can still fit in guidance for checks.  Recapping bard at 10d6+4d10+4d6 the standard for the druid is 10d6+4d8.  That's clearly in favor of the bard, for sure.  The lore bard started from behind and catches up to druids in that style (not the best plan for druids but I'll get to that; just apples to apples for now).  The situational damage for the druid is 10d6+8d8 so still competitive.  The question is how often that immobilization tactic can realistically be applied to leverage the bonfire DoT.  At 11th level it's 10d6+6d10+6d6 vs 10d6+12d8 situationally.The bard can get ahead of the druid in typical damage blow through spell slots on fireball and the druid blows through slots on lightning bolt.  Neither should be because they are both failing at using those slots or actions for anything else.  That removes options forcing the style.  The difference is the druid wasn't forced to not learn rituals or healing spells, has room for guidance, WIS is also a good skill attribute, and wildshape is phenomenal for versatility outside of spells.  That druid is still going to be more versatile than that bard even if both are trying to force something into the class that the chassis doesn't support.  A damage option isn't the same as good damage.Replace "rogue" with "cleric".  As far as caster damage options go they aren't the best either.  Spiritual weapon saves it as long as we're blasting through slots.  So light domain we're toll the dead and spiritual weapon, fireball, toll the dead.  At 6th level that's 3d8+4, 8d6, 2d12+1d8+4.  At 10th level that's 3d8+8, 10d6, 2d12+1d8+8.  The cleric also started with better armor, didn't lose out on spells prepped over known, and has guidance and room for rituals.Replace "rogue with "fighter". I wasn't going to go into too much detail, but a greatsword at 6(2d6+4) compared to 8d6+4d10 is also better direct target damage over those 3 rounds before looking at any other ways to increase the damage. Extra multiplying bonuses is obviously the track you were going for but the lore bard doesn't have the bonuses to be multiplied out.Your bard is going to be behind extra attack classes in target damage because of that.The bard in your example is better at range, anyway.  I think I illustrated how your uber lore bard us behind the curve on individual target damage repeatedly.A person cannot just say "primary caster" like is a magic argument wand.  It's a label without context and doesn't demonstrate anything.  All casters are not created equal and have different foci.So doubling down on a damage spell to also stay behind in damage and warn people we're there?  Way to diversify, lol.  That's still dealing with weaker fodder, which is part of control and support.Shatter lets you do damage more combats from 6th level when you're out of 3rd level slots, at least.I am not sure I'm following you here regarding expertise with "you only get 2 skill expertise early on for a whopping +2 on two skills while bard gets 1", sorry.  Are you thinking of the +1 bonus from jack-of-all-trades?Guidance is good and I brought it up earlier.  It's broader than expertise but also shallower.  It's hard to say expertise is a whopping +2 and then say the average +2.5 is better from guidance.  It's better than jack-of-all-trades.  If you mean levels 1 through 4 then sure, but you're also talking about your lore bard coming online at 6th level when expertise means +6 in a proficiency and the rogue has four of them.  We also talked about 10th level when reliable talent is right around the corner.Guidance is nowhere near as good as reliable talent, and bards also gain expertise only 1 level after jack-of-all-trades so the distinction seems pointless.As far as rogues being easy to replace, sure.  That's like saying it's easy to replace a druid with a cleric or a barbarian with a fighter.  There isn't a single class in 5e that cannot be replaced.People play a rogue because the rogue is still better at skills and plays differently.  That gets back to things like cunning action, evasion, uncanny dodge, and sneak attack.  I can easily replace a bard with a druid or cleric, and the playstyle you described I could do easily with a warlock (although I'd probably go celestial).That would be more convincing if you had demonstrated the rogue failing in combat and "better" is subjective.  A bard tossing spell slots into damage as fast as possible still doesn't do the high target damage and isn't as tanky.  You also might look funning trying to guidance your way out of a grapple compared to reliable talent.What feat do you think is creating the gap between a rogue and your lore bard example?  For that matter, why mention feats at all.  Everything you post is low level with the 1 or 2 ASI's going towards capping ability scores in your discussion.It's obvious not every character is human, or variant human so mentioning feats that haven't been taken doesn't make any sense.Good at skills isn't a niche, and it's not the only reason I play rogues.  Rogues are mobile and survivable in combat, and the best at skills as well.  If all you see is skills your blinders are on.Thief's reflexes, death strike, and slippery mind are hard to pass up, let alone reliable talent.That would be more convincing if I saw evidence of optimization.  Using secrets to add spiritual weapon better leveraging the bonus action would catch the valor bard using the battle magic and the same strategy your lore bard is, for example.Using a buzzword like "optimization" is just another example of the magic argument wand.  It's just a word without context.  Your example was a basic strategy that doesn't hold up to other basic strategies.  I didn't even include strategies to trigger a secondary sneak attack other than earlier saying the bard should just dissonant whispers for the rogue.That gets into actual drawbacks of the rogue instead of damage one you are trying to present.  Cunning action does compete for bonus actions and uncanny dodge does complete for off turn sneak attacks.Still like saying you can replace a druid with a cleric or a fighter with a  barbarian.  There are shared traits among the classes.  In this case, however, the bard isn't showing the durability and mobility the rogue has at this point.  "But range" doesn't stop closing or mean much when you enter a 30'x30' chamber, for an example.I'm open-minded.  Post your full build and what you are taking at each level and then you might convince me.</blockquote>

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