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Time to remake the Bard
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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7835604" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>That's something we both said. I'm not sure where that comment is coming from or your point.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which they cannot do. At 6th level, as you claim, it takes 3 of those 1st level slots to cover <em>hex</em> to cover the 2 short rests assumed that also renew your <em>bardic inspiration</em>. Using <em>enhance ability</em> once cost 1 of those 2nd-level slots and the last 1st-level slot to renew <em>hex</em>. That leaves 2 of the 2nd-level slots. If the bard casts any 2nd-level spell with concentration the final 2nd-level slot also goes to renewing <em>hex</em>. If the bard casts a ritual than another slot goes to renewing <em>hex</em>. If the bard cast any non-ritual non-concentration spell with a casting time greater 1 action another slot goes to renewing <em>hex</em>. Every time the bard takes damage and fails a concentration check that's another slot to renew <em>hex</em>.</p><p></p><p>What I've been telling you is those spells you mention casting, even for good reasons, don't just take <em>hex</em> away while using concentration for something else. Spell slots go twice as fast and the 1st-level slots are already depleted by renewing after short rests.</p><p></p><p>Running out of slots prevents applying other spells or damage. That specific spell is the problem keeping the bard from applying <em>hex</em> all the time and still casting those other spells at that level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right. That's because <em>hypnotic pattern</em> is a 3rd-level spell just like <em>fireball</em> is a 3rd-level spell. The spell level ranking system considers them of roughly equal value. Learning <em>fireball</em> isn't overpowered when <em>hypnotic pattern</em> is very often the better spell to use. It's just a different use of the same 3rd-level spell slot. The actual power increase was at 5th level and gaining that slot, and not at 6th level with simply adding more spells to use it.</p><p></p><p>Using <em>hypnotic pattern</em>, not only cost <em>hex</em> during that time but cost the slot to renew <em>hex</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's too much competition for too few slots by referencing or using too many concentration spells in your example, but that's because the bard's spell list is loaded with concentration spells.</p><p></p><p>Having used your examples and cast <em>enhance ability</em> once and <em>hypnotic pattern</em> once there are enough 3rd-level spell slots to cast <em>fireball</em> twice in the day total. That mean 4 out of 6 encounters will just be <em>eldritch blast</em> and <em>hex</em>.</p><p></p><p>The spell DC is 15 at 6th level. Assuming absolutely no saving throw bonus or resistance the primary target will take about 35 or 17.5 on average and that blends to 30 with a 30% save rate. Each bolt does ~6.3 damage. 2 encounters do ~55 damage averaged out. 4 encounters would do ~38 damage. That's a rough damage break down.</p><p></p><p><em>Hex</em> is killing the versatility you would have for that damage by eating slots and all you are really doing is spamming <em>eldritch blast</em> without <em>agonizing blast</em>. That sucks compared to a standard vanilla warlock at that point. The bard could arguably out-damage the <em>hex</em> build using those lost slots for <em>dissonant whispers</em> leveraging opportunity attacks, remove a major concentration conflict, and still have another secret to take instead. That's still keeping <em>eldritch blast</em> and <em>fireball</em>.</p><p></p><p>Bards never needed <em>hex</em> to do damage. Using secrets to grab a really good damage multiplier instead of using the really good damage multiplier already available does not prove your cherry-picking premise. The disadvantage in the approach is needing people near the target, much like the typical rogue sneak attack.</p><p></p><p>Sneak attack, btw, at that level is bringing the rogue ~52 for those 3 rounds encounters. Clearly outdoing the EB's and catching up to the <em>fireball</em> rounds. That's before selecting a race and/or feat, or a subclass to match. Scaling up sneak attack for every round of combat while <em>fireball</em> is only applied to 1 round of combat and EB/<em>hex </em>don't scale until 11th level is still why the rogue will keep outpacing the concept. Spell level and sneak attack both go up at the same but that scaling up is applied 3 times as often for the rogue.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, losing <em>hex</em> can drop the damage quite a bit and the rogue tanks it without sneak attack at ~21 for a 3 round encounter no sneak attack.</p><p></p><p>The trick isn't in getting sneak attack. It's getting that second sneak attack. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not just the extra spell slots from recovery. Arcane recovery is pretty good and eventually spell mastery is a thing. I can live without ritual casting, but it's still a good ability and the wizard mechanic grants a lot of it. </p><p></p><p>The sparse table misleads. Wizards get a lot out of the traditions the directly improve their spellcasting. Casting divinations on a diviner are almost free, for example. A more direct comparison is the evoker who can ignore friendly fire with a lot of spells for tactical advantage, turns save cantrips from damage or none to damage or half (<em>create bonfire</em> synergy), adds damage as well, still has more spells prepped than the bard, and then pops in <em>overchannel</em>. Your bard example adds skills and healing to the mix but fails tactics with <em>sculpt spells</em> and fails hard compared to <em>overchannel</em> surging. That's not a bard being powerful using secrets. That's a caster making a trade-off.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can take anything I want that the DM hasn't decided to opt out of the campaign. It's my character, lol. Truth be told, my personal preference is to match my concept and then go for mechanical advantage to match. The concept trumps the cheese tactics. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>I would never take <em>destructive wave</em>. I would take <em>banishment</em> and have. I always take an efficient healing spell. When you show <em>destructive wave</em> and <em>banishment</em>, I see "how do I manage <em>raise dead</em>, <em>greater restoration</em>, and <em>mass cure wounds</em>?"</p><p></p><p>That's something I was getting at in your examples. Your bard sucks as a healer. He does more damage but he's rather marginal even for minor supplemental healing. Throwing those slots at maintaining <em>hex</em> lost the efficient healing by slot bottleneck even if a spell had been selected, and enough wizard spells were being mentioned at 6th and 10th level it didn't look like that was even an option. </p><p></p><p>Taking a feat can be better than an ASI. It also just dropped your damage potential again by missing more and targets saving more.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except in the example the bard cast <em>enhance ability</em> once and that then did nothing but trail damage except for 2<em> fireballs</em>. Saying "primary caster" didn't give your primary caster anything to warrant the dismissive comment. The spells and approach to claim the damage for the bard haven't changed that.</p><p></p><p>A primary caster doing nothing but damage and less than the rogue and "close enough in utility" isn't demonstrating any advantage just by putting on his "I am a caster" t-shirt at that point.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7835604, member: 6750235"] That's something we both said. I'm not sure where that comment is coming from or your point. Which they cannot do. At 6th level, as you claim, it takes 3 of those 1st level slots to cover [I]hex[/I] to cover the 2 short rests assumed that also renew your [I]bardic inspiration[/I]. Using [I]enhance ability[/I] once cost 1 of those 2nd-level slots and the last 1st-level slot to renew [I]hex[/I]. That leaves 2 of the 2nd-level slots. If the bard casts any 2nd-level spell with concentration the final 2nd-level slot also goes to renewing [I]hex[/I]. If the bard casts a ritual than another slot goes to renewing [I]hex[/I]. If the bard cast any non-ritual non-concentration spell with a casting time greater 1 action another slot goes to renewing [I]hex[/I]. Every time the bard takes damage and fails a concentration check that's another slot to renew [I]hex[/I]. What I've been telling you is those spells you mention casting, even for good reasons, don't just take [I]hex[/I] away while using concentration for something else. Spell slots go twice as fast and the 1st-level slots are already depleted by renewing after short rests. Running out of slots prevents applying other spells or damage. That specific spell is the problem keeping the bard from applying [I]hex[/I] all the time and still casting those other spells at that level. Right. That's because [I]hypnotic pattern[/I] is a 3rd-level spell just like [I]fireball[/I] is a 3rd-level spell. The spell level ranking system considers them of roughly equal value. Learning [I]fireball[/I] isn't overpowered when [I]hypnotic pattern[/I] is very often the better spell to use. It's just a different use of the same 3rd-level spell slot. The actual power increase was at 5th level and gaining that slot, and not at 6th level with simply adding more spells to use it. Using [I]hypnotic pattern[/I], not only cost [I]hex[/I] during that time but cost the slot to renew [I]hex[/I]. There's too much competition for too few slots by referencing or using too many concentration spells in your example, but that's because the bard's spell list is loaded with concentration spells. Having used your examples and cast [I]enhance ability[/I] once and [I]hypnotic pattern[/I] once there are enough 3rd-level spell slots to cast [I]fireball[/I] twice in the day total. That mean 4 out of 6 encounters will just be [I]eldritch blast[/I] and [I]hex[/I]. The spell DC is 15 at 6th level. Assuming absolutely no saving throw bonus or resistance the primary target will take about 35 or 17.5 on average and that blends to 30 with a 30% save rate. Each bolt does ~6.3 damage. 2 encounters do ~55 damage averaged out. 4 encounters would do ~38 damage. That's a rough damage break down. [I]Hex[/I] is killing the versatility you would have for that damage by eating slots and all you are really doing is spamming [I]eldritch blast[/I] without [I]agonizing blast[/I]. That sucks compared to a standard vanilla warlock at that point. The bard could arguably out-damage the [I]hex[/I] build using those lost slots for [I]dissonant whispers[/I] leveraging opportunity attacks, remove a major concentration conflict, and still have another secret to take instead. That's still keeping [I]eldritch blast[/I] and [I]fireball[/I]. Bards never needed [I]hex[/I] to do damage. Using secrets to grab a really good damage multiplier instead of using the really good damage multiplier already available does not prove your cherry-picking premise. The disadvantage in the approach is needing people near the target, much like the typical rogue sneak attack. Sneak attack, btw, at that level is bringing the rogue ~52 for those 3 rounds encounters. Clearly outdoing the EB's and catching up to the [I]fireball[/I] rounds. That's before selecting a race and/or feat, or a subclass to match. Scaling up sneak attack for every round of combat while [I]fireball[/I] is only applied to 1 round of combat and EB/[I]hex [/I]don't scale until 11th level is still why the rogue will keep outpacing the concept. Spell level and sneak attack both go up at the same but that scaling up is applied 3 times as often for the rogue. Conversely, losing [I]hex[/I] can drop the damage quite a bit and the rogue tanks it without sneak attack at ~21 for a 3 round encounter no sneak attack. The trick isn't in getting sneak attack. It's getting that second sneak attack. ;) It's not just the extra spell slots from recovery. Arcane recovery is pretty good and eventually spell mastery is a thing. I can live without ritual casting, but it's still a good ability and the wizard mechanic grants a lot of it. The sparse table misleads. Wizards get a lot out of the traditions the directly improve their spellcasting. Casting divinations on a diviner are almost free, for example. A more direct comparison is the evoker who can ignore friendly fire with a lot of spells for tactical advantage, turns save cantrips from damage or none to damage or half ([I]create bonfire[/I] synergy), adds damage as well, still has more spells prepped than the bard, and then pops in [I]overchannel[/I]. Your bard example adds skills and healing to the mix but fails tactics with [I]sculpt spells[/I] and fails hard compared to [I]overchannel[/I] surging. That's not a bard being powerful using secrets. That's a caster making a trade-off. I can take anything I want that the DM hasn't decided to opt out of the campaign. It's my character, lol. Truth be told, my personal preference is to match my concept and then go for mechanical advantage to match. The concept trumps the cheese tactics. ;) I would never take [I]destructive wave[/I]. I would take [I]banishment[/I] and have. I always take an efficient healing spell. When you show [I]destructive wave[/I] and [I]banishment[/I], I see "how do I manage [I]raise dead[/I], [I]greater restoration[/I], and [I]mass cure wounds[/I]?" That's something I was getting at in your examples. Your bard sucks as a healer. He does more damage but he's rather marginal even for minor supplemental healing. Throwing those slots at maintaining [I]hex[/I] lost the efficient healing by slot bottleneck even if a spell had been selected, and enough wizard spells were being mentioned at 6th and 10th level it didn't look like that was even an option. Taking a feat can be better than an ASI. It also just dropped your damage potential again by missing more and targets saving more. Except in the example the bard cast [I]enhance ability[/I] once and that then did nothing but trail damage except for 2[I] fireballs[/I]. Saying "primary caster" didn't give your primary caster anything to warrant the dismissive comment. The spells and approach to claim the damage for the bard haven't changed that. A primary caster doing nothing but damage and less than the rogue and "close enough in utility" isn't demonstrating any advantage just by putting on his "I am a caster" t-shirt at that point. [/QUOTE]
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