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<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 325801" data-attributes="member: 151">I think Loki's point was that if you have to use Rule 0 to remove certain spells or other apects of the game to enjoy it, then you probably aren't playing the right type of game, as a high-level expects or depends on the availbility of such powers.&nbsp; While I'm not sure I agree with that, I can see his point.Personally, I think if you intend to run a mystery in higher-level play, you need to think more precisely about how to run it, and compensate for the players abilities.&nbsp; Scrying is a powerful ability, but reasonably easy to thwart, as is teleport, or any number of abilities.&nbsp; If it bothers you that you have to set up all of your mysteries along those lines (and I could see why it would), then you need to decide how to approach the percieved problem.On the extreme, you could have 'the Standing Stone', a module where the players are thwarted at every turn by a, IMHO, unfair module setup that defies logic at several points.&nbsp; Even so, a couple of high-level spells can thwart that.&nbsp; The problem here is that the game isn't really scaled to handling 'mystery' formats, which was Hong's point, I think. Where do you stop, I guess is my question.&nbsp; Many of the cleric's more salient high-level spells are devoted to information gathering.&nbsp; Does Commune have to go?&nbsp; Legend Lore?&nbsp; Wish?&nbsp; If you and your players are comfortable with it, that's fine.&nbsp; To me, high-level play redefines D&amp;D, as the game plays significantly differently in the 'teens than it does in the single-digits.&nbsp; DMs need to adapt to it and let players enjoy the fruits of their labors.&nbsp; Otherwise, there are plenty of options to work within a framework that allows for things like mysteries...but expect some common tropes to appear.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 325801, member: 151"] I think Loki's point was that if you have to use Rule 0 to remove certain spells or other apects of the game to enjoy it, then you probably aren't playing the right type of game, as a high-level expects or depends on the availbility of such powers. While I'm not sure I agree with that, I can see his point. Personally, I think if you intend to run a mystery in higher-level play, you need to think more precisely about how to run it, and compensate for the players abilities. Scrying is a powerful ability, but reasonably easy to thwart, as is teleport, or any number of abilities. If it bothers you that you have to set up all of your mysteries along those lines (and I could see why it would), then you need to decide how to approach the percieved problem. On the extreme, you could have 'the Standing Stone', a module where the players are thwarted at every turn by a, IMHO, unfair module setup that defies logic at several points. Even so, a couple of high-level spells can thwart that. The problem here is that the game isn't really scaled to handling 'mystery' formats, which was Hong's point, I think. Where do you stop, I guess is my question. Many of the cleric's more salient high-level spells are devoted to information gathering. Does Commune have to go? Legend Lore? Wish? If you and your players are comfortable with it, that's fine. To me, high-level play redefines D&D, as the game plays significantly differently in the 'teens than it does in the single-digits. DMs need to adapt to it and let players enjoy the fruits of their labors. Otherwise, there are plenty of options to work within a framework that allows for things like mysteries...but expect some common tropes to appear. [/QUOTE]

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