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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5162705" data-attributes="member: 82106">Right. The rules don't quite come out and say it, but effects granted by class features or feats are dealt with in step 5, after damage, where it says 'apply effects', and even if they are applied simultaneous to damage they aren't ALREADY in effect. There are a very few feats (one of the early style feats IIRC that is in the 2009 Dragon Annual) that seem like they should trigger on a condition applied at that moment, but nothing says it DOES. There are also errata on a couple of feats that are clarifications saying the feat doesn't apply on the same hit (see Frost Cheese). But the question does still remain which way ALL feats are intended to work. I think like most of 4e RAI doesn't follow one single consistent interpretation 100% of the time. My real argument with both of the OP's examples is that the marked requirement is meaningless if you assume it always triggers. Unless someone can explain another reason that text is there you just have to hit the enemy again to get the bonus! Its still a good feat to take.</blockquote>