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Message: <blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 2282148" data-attributes="member: 10201">Yep--i'm not meaning to single out D20 System, by any means.Is that pure hypothesis, or have you actually seen that? Depending on why one games, that *is* a plausible consequence, but not one i've ever heard of or seen myself.My point wasn't that i've learned lots of games--it was that laziness, if not inertia, could actually be in favor of multiple simple games over one complex game, if you were to do a strict analysis. It depends on the games in question and the gamers in question, but it is at least possible that you could spend less effort learning a whole new simple system than simply keeping up with additions to a more-complex one. Or that you could, over the course of multiple games, spend less effort to learn a new system for each campaign, if all of them were rules-lite, than you spend to learn just one system, once, and apply it to all the campaigns, if it's particularly complex. Or, to get back to my specific experiences, if i wasn't running Arcana Unearthed right now, i'd've had several more hours per week to spend on something else, whether that was better scenario preparation (as opposed to statting things up for the scenario), or learning yet more alternative systems (which often improve my GMing in whatever i'm running at the time), or writing.Hey, it's a fact that some games that used to have their own system have been published in a new edition with D20 System (in at least some cases replacing the old system), and that some games that were initially going to be a new system ended up becoming D20 System before they saw print. It might not be very many of them, but it *has* occurred. It's not just a perception, it has actually occurred. Now, the idea that "everything is going to be D20 System, and it's all gonna suxxors"--that's just a perception (and an opinion).<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">i love the potential inherent in open-content game development, and specifically in having a system with the relative robustness and completeness of D20 System available for anyone to play with. This is, in many cases, the best place for discussions relevant to this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I can't stand D&D3[.5]E--but there are plenty of D20 System games i like, a couple i love, and some that i think are the best thing on the market for their niche (such as Spycraft).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There's not much point in "preaching to the choir"--if the only people on EnWorld are those who love D20 System and D&D3E, and the only people on RPGNet are those who can't stand D20 System and/or D&D3E, there's less useful communication going on. Nobody's gonna discover the game on the other side of the divide that'd interest them. if i hadn't continued to look at D20 System games despite my initial negative reaction, and my horrible experiences with D&D3E, i would've missed Spycraft, Grimm, Nyambe, and some other really phenomenal RPG books. If things were to become insular with "D20 System players" and "everyone else", the guy who asked about Riddle of Steel last week wouldn't've gotten any answers, and wouldn't have discovered a game it sounds like he'll love. [Yes, this is hyperbole--there's plenty of crossover between systems. But there is certainly a noticeable impetus among D20 System players--not all o them, but there are some examples in this thread alone--and with Dragon/Dungeon to act as if the rest of the RPG world doesn't exist.]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">An open mind is always a good thing. I may not care for the high-crunch tendency of D20 System RPGs, but tons of people love them, so i figure i should pay some attention, because they might know something i don't.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I'm running a D20 System game right now. Since crunchy games aren't really my forte, i often turn here for system-specific advice. Can't ask on Monte Cook's boards, because one of my players reads those. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">As i said above, i'm not averse to D20 System in the abstract, just a lot of its instantiations. So if i can have any influence in shifting that a bit--such as by talking up the ones i like in the hopes that others will like them, or by tossing out ideas--i win.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I may not like a lot of the elements of D&D3E, but D20 System is a very cool framework to play with as a game designer. IMHO, there're two really satisfying aspects to the mechanical side of game design: creating something creative and new and nifty, and building something cool with an existing structure. D20 System, for me, best satisfies that latter itch. It's a bit like the people i know who make their living doing MSWindows tech support, even though they personally use a Mac: i like to do game design with d20 System, but when i "get home" i prefer something lighter to actually GM with.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I've run into way too many "one true way" RPers over the years who, once i overcame their resistance and got them to try something radically different, discovered they really loved it, to quit trying. Heck, i'm one of them, in a very minor way: i always hated combat in RPGs, it was my least favorite part of the game, as a GM or player--i could just stand it as a GM, but always avoided it as a player. Then i discovered the gestalt combat system in Over the Edge, and realized that it wasn't violent conflict resolution in RPGs that i hated, but lots of fiddly details.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The tone is different here than other places, so conversations go in different directions. It's refreshing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I love D&D. It really is fun. It's just that i think that in the redesign from AD&D1/2 to D&D3E, they threw out the baby with the bathwater--almost all the elements that made D&D "D&D" for me, and made it fun, are gone. And the few things that i did think needed fixing didn't get fixed. This causes me to sometimes be bitter and frustrated, because i want to play a game that doesn't exist. Or, rather, didn't exist until Arcana Unearthed was published. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  And i'm hardly alone in this--there're certainly plenty of participants in therads i've been in who seem to share my attitudes towards D&D3E--in whole, or just specific subsystems. Do you ask them what they're doing here?</li> </ul>[aside]You guys gotta quit putting the Chicago gamedays on top of or right next to conventions, especially major conventions. Even if i'm not totally wiped out from Origins, the odds of my finances handling the trip to Chicago for a weekend are really slim. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /></blockquote>

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