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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Treebore" data-source="post: 2284077" data-attributes="member: 10177">I've always been for a rules lite system, when one was available for the genre that I wanted to play, except when it comes to Traveller. For some reason I prefer the original system. Probably because it is simple, until you get into ship creation. Some people find ship combat complicated, but it isn't once you realize it is like it is to hopefully involve as many characters as possible in the combat.Shadowrun isn't exactly complex. I think my problems with that system is that too much of it is undefined, especially with the magic part of the system.As for 3E. IT is well defined. It has become too defined for my tastes. I may as well as play Rolemaster for the complexity, which is why I stayed away from Rolemaster in the first place. It is also why I don't play Aftermath, even though I really like that specific genre.So yes, I have become tired of 3E, and I will no longer DM it after I wrap up my current campaign. Hopefully this weekend. I'll play it whenever I can. Playing isn't complex. DMing it is. I also have come to feel that the complexity has hampered the fun of the adventures. Yes, we now have a rule to cover just about anything, but using those rules add to the complexity, slow down game play, and prevent or cause a "disconnect" between the player and the events of the game. In other words, my players become far less emotionally involved in what is happening. They have way too much numbers crunching going on, keeping them emotionally detached. So I do not see the excitement I used to when I DM. Nor do I see or feel it when I am playing.I am not saying I do not feel any excitement. I am saying I do not see or feel anywhere near the level, or intensity, of excitement I used to see around the gaming table. I still see it when I GM Traveller. Heck, I even see it with Shadowrun.I want to play a fantasy game where I here the players voices shaky with excitement. I want to see them have a difficult time picking up dice because of how hyped they are about what is happening. I want to see them jump up and down with excitement when they finally killed that "Rat B**tard". I want to do those same things when I am playing.I haven't done it since 3E came out. I have seen others get that way only a handful of times, while playing 3E. I have seen it every game session with Legend of the Five Rings/Rokugan. I have seen it with every gaming session of Traveller. I have seen it with every session of Shadowrun. Even GURPS. I even saw it with a 2E game my wife ran for several weeks.My current gaming group has proven this to me more strongly than ever before. They play other games, under their original DM, before I show up. They have usually been playing 3 to 4 hours by the time I get there. While sitting there, waiting for them to wrap up the game they were playing so we can play either the game I run or the game I play in, I have noticed something I find very striking.I see them more excited, more into, what their characters are doing then I have ever seen them in any of the 3E games I have played or DMed with them, or even watched them play. Usually we have one player who is always able to get excited to a very noticeable degree in comparison to the other players. When I watched them play Exalted, or Witches, or some other one shot, they talk louder, move around a lot more in their seats, are watching the DMing, hold their dice waiting to make their next roll. Just like the player who is normally excited to play.While playing 3E I see them reading gaming books, crotcheting, nitting, messing with little toys, needing to be prompted that it is their turn to roll the dice, regualrly getting up to get a drink or snack, or go run a load of laundry.So, yes, I am tired of D20. I think a lot of players and DM's are, but just haven't noticed yet, because they still have fun, just not as much as they could if they played something else.So I am going to try to get people interested in a rules lite system. Inconsistencies and all. I want to see the intense emotional involvement again, every week. Most of all, I want to feel it. Even when I DM.A lot of you sound like you have that kind of involvement with 3E. I hope you really do. I don't. So I am looking for something better.</blockquote>

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