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Message: <blockquote data-quote="invokethehojo" data-source="post: 5521005" data-attributes="member: 62525">I doesn't have to turn it that way, but I find it often does.  I would love to have a group of people that are well versed in the game rules and pay close attention 100% of the time, so when their turn comes up they fire off their actions quickly... but I don't get that.  Most groups I play with have 1 or 2 guys like that, and then a few people who, when their turn comes up, go, "ok, what can I do".  I would have to venture that most groups are like this.Sorry about that, I started the thread while at work, so I didn't take the time to edit my thoughts.  I would have phrased things better if I had.This is what I was getting at.  A lot can be said about system design and combat length and rules, and no one can really come to an agreement on those topics, but I do think that an agreement can be made that when a game's rule system evolves, so should it's encounter/adventure design model.  I would argue that the "dungeon crawl" (mostly meaning combat after combat) is a sacred cow that is kept around only because it is a comfortable cliche, however it no longer works.  Monster design is similar.  Designers (from system creators to homebrew adventure writers) need to look at each facet of their creation and justify how it serves to make the whole better.  If it doesn't then change it.</blockquote>Could you sort of break this down better for me? Maybe I'm just stupid today, but you seem to have some things all sorta mixed willy-nilly and it's hard for me to parse them in light of your aggressive post title.[/QUOTE]My main point, which I didn't phrase very well, is this: I don't believe that, when most people complain about "long combat times" they really dislike combats taking longer because of rules evlolution.  I believe that what really bothers them is the fact that most adventures still involve lots of essentially meaningless combats strung together.  So the complaint should really be, "as the rules have changed, why haven't gamers changed how they design encounters/adventures to keep up with them".  We can't change the rules, but we can change how adventures are written, so if that is indeed the problem, we can fix it, by writing our home adventures differently, or by not buying combat-slog published adventures so publishers have to adapt.I find this problem in adventures and in movies.  I think large companies view americans and stupid, so they write a few action sequences and then connect those dots with the barest amount of story possible and call it a blockbuster.  It may make them money, but I think the argument can be made that adventures and movies both make more money if they are memorable, and while action is cool, a cool story to serve as a motivation for that action is much more memorable in the long run.[/QUOTE]

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