Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 2469422" data-attributes="member: 2013">I didn't remember &quot;varáz&quot; from my Hungarian (and though I'm not a native speaker, I'm about as close as you'll find), and when I did a little thinking, I realized I think you mean &quot;Varázs&quot; (with a trailing &quot;s&quot;) and it's pretty much the same thing as &quot;charisma&quot; - to apply it on its own to magic is to misapply it in exactly the way you got annoyed at &quot;mana&quot; (mis)applied to magic!&nbsp; As in nemi varázs (sex appeal) or egyéni varázs (personal magnetism; the ability to project to others) or személyes varázs (varázs specific to an individual, often translated as simply &quot;charisma&quot;).Interestingly, when Hungarian begins to apply its postpositional suffixes to varázs, it begins to shift from simple &quot;Charisma&quot; to the more mystic thing you're looking for... varázsló, for instance, could be literally rendered as &quot;one who practices varázs&quot; and could be translated as magician, wizard, sorcerer, etc.From there, you get to varázsige (literally &quot;word of varázs&quot;, or magical incantation), varázsjel (&quot;mark/engraving of varázs&quot; or magic rune), varázsital (&quot;drink produced by varázs&quot; or potions), varázslat (&quot;the study of varázs&quot; or the study of sorcery/wizardry itself), varázslas (&quot;the practice of varázs&quot; or actually casting the spells, as opposed to merely studying them - field experimentation as opposed to theory, if you will), and so on.&nbsp; If you go on, you can get things like átvarázsol (literally &quot;to varázs (something) across&quot; or to transmute/polymorph) or elővarázsol (literally, to varázs (something) to the space before you&quot; or to summon/conjure into being).The reason I'm going through all this boring etymology with varázs is to point out to you that one of the substitutions you yourself proposed as an alternative to the &quot;misapplied&quot; word MANA is essentially identical in meaning to mana, and is only associated with magic through the same &quot;misapplication&quot; process in another language!&nbsp; The only difference is that the &quot;misapplication&quot; is hundreds of years old instead of decades old!Furthermore, I think it's not a misapplication at all!&nbsp; One of the things I really enjoyed about 3e is the way it defined charisma as more than simply &quot;attractiveness&quot; - now it really does seem to consist of &quot;your ability to project your will onto the world around you&quot; (this is why sorcerer spells are Cha-based and monster attacks that are not physical gouts of stuff are generally Cha-based).&nbsp; This definition makes Charisma make a lot more sense as an &quot;attribute&quot; akin to Strength or Intelligence because it kind of indicates something quantifiable - as opposed to simple attractiveness, which is subjective in the eye of the beholder anyway (i.e., not an &quot;objective&quot; thing and therefore not easily quantifiable)!&nbsp; Does it not make sense that Charisma - &quot;mana or varázs&quot; - sees a natural outgrowth of the concept of simple psychological &quot;influence&quot; into a (superstitious) concept of real, physical influence?&nbsp; (I hope that was understandable).In other words, magical effects are a manifestation of some sort of &quot;intangible energy field.&quot;&nbsp; This energy field can be manipulated two ways - by applying pseudoscience (Int-based wizards) or by sheer force of will projected on the world (Cha-based sorcerers)... in much the same way people can be influenced by logical argument (Int-based) or personal magnetism/emotional argument (Cha-based).&nbsp;&nbsp; Since humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize, it makes sense that since we see two ways in which WE are influenced, nature must be influenced in analagous ways.The upshot of all of this is: To use a word to describe one's potential to manipulate the field that is derived from &quot;force of will projected onto the world&quot; - be it charisma, mana, or varázs - is NOT a misapplication, but rather a natural etymological evolution of the word.&nbsp; So I reject your first argument - that using &quot;mana&quot; as synonomous for &quot;magic points&quot; or &quot;magic potential&quot; is a misapplication.&nbsp; I think it's a perfectly valid one! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />--The Sigil</blockquote>

[QUOTE="The Sigil, post: 2469422, member: 2013"] I didn't remember "varáz" from my Hungarian (and though I'm not a native speaker, I'm about as close as you'll find), and when I did a little thinking, I realized I think you mean "Varázs" (with a trailing "s") and it's pretty much the same thing as "charisma" - to apply it on its own to magic is to misapply it in exactly the way you got annoyed at "mana" (mis)applied to magic! As in nemi varázs (sex appeal) or egyéni varázs (personal magnetism; the ability to project to others) or személyes varázs (varázs specific to an individual, often translated as simply "charisma"). Interestingly, when Hungarian begins to apply its postpositional suffixes to varázs, it begins to shift from simple "Charisma" to the more mystic thing you're looking for... varázsló, for instance, could be literally rendered as "one who practices varázs" and could be translated as magician, wizard, sorcerer, etc. From there, you get to varázsige (literally "word of varázs", or magical incantation), varázsjel ("mark/engraving of varázs" or magic rune), varázsital ("drink produced by varázs" or potions), varázslat ("the study of varázs" or the study of sorcery/wizardry itself), varázslas ("the practice of varázs" or actually casting the spells, as opposed to merely studying them - field experimentation as opposed to theory, if you will), and so on. If you go on, you can get things like átvarázsol (literally "to varázs (something) across" or to transmute/polymorph) or elővarázsol (literally, to varázs (something) to the space before you" or to summon/conjure into being). The reason I'm going through all this boring etymology with varázs is to point out to you that one of the substitutions you yourself proposed as an alternative to the "misapplied" word MANA is essentially identical in meaning to mana, and is only associated with magic through the same "misapplication" process in another language! The only difference is that the "misapplication" is hundreds of years old instead of decades old! Furthermore, I think it's not a misapplication at all! One of the things I really enjoyed about 3e is the way it defined charisma as more than simply "attractiveness" - now it really does seem to consist of "your ability to project your will onto the world around you" (this is why sorcerer spells are Cha-based and monster attacks that are not physical gouts of stuff are generally Cha-based). This definition makes Charisma make a lot more sense as an "attribute" akin to Strength or Intelligence because it kind of indicates something quantifiable - as opposed to simple attractiveness, which is subjective in the eye of the beholder anyway (i.e., not an "objective" thing and therefore not easily quantifiable)! Does it not make sense that Charisma - "mana or varázs" - sees a natural outgrowth of the concept of simple psychological "influence" into a (superstitious) concept of real, physical influence? (I hope that was understandable). In other words, magical effects are a manifestation of some sort of "intangible energy field." This energy field can be manipulated two ways - by applying pseudoscience (Int-based wizards) or by sheer force of will projected on the world (Cha-based sorcerers)... in much the same way people can be influenced by logical argument (Int-based) or personal magnetism/emotional argument (Cha-based). Since humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize, it makes sense that since we see two ways in which WE are influenced, nature must be influenced in analagous ways. The upshot of all of this is: To use a word to describe one's potential to manipulate the field that is derived from "force of will projected onto the world" - be it charisma, mana, or varázs - is NOT a misapplication, but rather a natural etymological evolution of the word. So I reject your first argument - that using "mana" as synonomous for "magic points" or "magic potential" is a misapplication. I think it's a perfectly valid one! ;) --The Sigil [/QUOTE]

Verification