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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Leatherhead" data-source="post: 4276193" data-attributes="member: 53176">Yes, if you are pressed for time, you shouldn't wait for knock ritual.Here is something people may not yet realize:Knock can fail. If it does, that is 10 minutes waisted and there is no indication that the ritual is discreet in the slightest. The denizens of the dungeon now have an additional 10 minutes, at the least, before you can open the lock with Knock to set up.It takes only a standard action to break down a door, with a STR check as opposed to hacking it apart with a weapon. Not quite enough time to set up an ambush from scratch. Granted, it is a bit harder to break down some doors than others so this will not always work. The next tidbit should be more interesting however.It only takes a standard action for anyone to pick a lock, that includes people who are not trained in thievery.* In fact, with aid other, Jack of all Trades, some thieves tools, a good DEX mod, and two minutes time: You stand a good chance to pick any appropriate level lock without skill training. And only need two of the four are required for the heroic tier, but only against reinforced locks. There are also some magic items that help with this check. As most people here know already, 20 rounds takes approximately 120 seconds. Someone who attempted this is probably going to fail many times before they finally get it. But even if they have to roll 50 times in order to get a high enough number to pass,  it is still twice as fast (in game time that is) as trying to cast the ritual. The use of thievery without nice modifiers is not practical for a skill challenge. On the other hand is it quite possible to attain a decent modifier without skill training, and a full blown skill challenge is a bit odd for simply bypassing a lock.*: The default rules do not require skill training in thievery to pick a lock, however the rules explicitly state a DM may require training for some uses of thievery. I am considering requiring it, or at least jack of all trades,  for this use myself.</blockquote>

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