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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 4154254" data-attributes="member: 7635">I think there is a sub-point to be made in this argument. The simplest fix to Ashrym's example would be to decrease the NPC's hp. Most everyone agrees this is the preferred Scenario. However, if it hasn't been made clear: ASHRYM WASN'T THE DM! He was a player witnessing the attack. He had no control over the scenario, but it left a bad taste in his mouth. As a long time thief/rogue player, I can see why. The flavor reason for granting the thief/rogue backstab/sneak attack was so a rogue could quietly dispatch a guard while sneaking around. He doesn't get boatloads of attacks like a fighter, or easy to finish-you-off spells like a mage. He gets SA. That is his only tool to deal with a  sentry.The problem is, that SA didn't (by the rules) deal enough damage to finish the guard. So all those hide/move silently rolls were wasted. All the player's clever intuition came to naught. He could've got the same results by charging the gate, fighter wielding his blade and wizard fireballing the belltower. Sub Problem: A rogue doesn't do enough damage to reasonably dispose of a foe that is within his CR range effectively. There is a reason for this, of course. D&D is a team sport. If a rogue could one shot, one kill most foes, he wouldn't need other PCs. However, his SA damage is just far enough behind the hp curve that it never works as advertised: it cannot silence a sentry before he can call the alarm. And as bad as SA was, backstab in 1e/2e was worse (5dX damage at 13th level? there is no foe that's going to drop that a simple sword blow wouldn't anyway...) For some, its a feature, not a bug that rogues can't solo-kill. For others (like Ashrym) its maddening to know there was no real chance of success with that chosen tactic, all the planning and forethought be damned. So what do we do? Do we fix SA to solo kill? Do we fix hp to make the game less lethal? Do we leave as is? And what do we do if we're NOT the DM and we're the one who gets slaughtered because the combined total of your SA damage =/= your foe's hp and your now screwed? Ashrym solved the problem by going to GURPS. Kudos to him. He also mentioned he likes D&D for the opposite reason: No kobold rogue will solo-kill him before he can roll for init. Cuts both ways. 4e looks to try to fix that, but we don't know until June. Meanwhile, it would behoove rogue players to remember that an SA is not a killing blow, but an opening salvo. The road to Hell is paved in the bones of rogues who thought xd6 damage would be enough. When all else fails, call the mage and make sure he has invisibility...</blockquote>

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