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<blockquote data-quote="jlhorner1974" data-source="post: 467600" data-attributes="member: 8628">Of course the classes are not balanced on their own.&nbsp; After all, the game balance was not done in an attempt to make a Ftr 20 and a Wiz 20 &quot;equal&quot; with class features alone.&nbsp; The balance was done considering all aspects of the game, so I think that the concept of a &quot;fair&quot; duel between a Ftr 20 and a Wiz 20 using only class features and no magic items, is very boring.&nbsp;&nbsp; Attempting to balance all of the traditional D&amp;D classes so that Xth level characters of classes Y and Z are equally balanced without magical items is got to be virtually impossible.It matters a lot how you define the terms of the duel.&nbsp; If the combatants start out a long distance apart with all prep spells previously cast, the Wizard is almost impossible to beat.&nbsp; If the two started out within arm's reach of another with no prep spells allowed before the duel begins, suddenly the advantageshifts in the direction of the fighter.&nbsp; I certainly would not allow the Wizard to have a half dozen prep spells up before the duel started.&nbsp;&nbsp; At that point, the duel becomes a race for the wizard.&nbsp; If the wizard can get enough protection spells up fast enough or can cast a successful disabler against the fighter (time stop, disintegrate, etc), the wizard will always win.&nbsp; If the wizard cannot, the fighter will chop him to bits.&nbsp; If the fighter is allowed to use nonmagical poisoned arrows, the grand duel basically boils down to an initiative contest.&nbsp; The fight should be over in 2 rounds, tops.It's easy to say that one Time Stop wins the fight.&nbsp; You will always find specific situations in role playing games where things are not balanced but remember that all spells in D&amp;D are designed and balanced with adventuring/party use as a whole in mind, not for dueling in mind.&nbsp; Even in the Diablo PC game, the rules for how things work in duels are different than for regular adventuring.&nbsp; It has to be, otherwise balancing the game would be almost impossible.And I bet if you did manage to balance it in this way, not many people would like it better than the original.Now if what you are really getting at is how do I balance a fight between a 20th level Wizard and a single 20th level Fighter, considering the Wizard can prep and both have access to a fair amont of magic items in the context of an adventure, there are a huge number of possible choices due to the richness of D&amp;D.&nbsp; For every strategy, there should always be a counterstrategy.&nbsp; If there isn't, something is broken anyway.&nbsp; Good DMs and good players accept this and roll with it, and everyone participating in the thread has proved this point.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jlhorner1974, post: 467600, member: 8628"] Of course the classes are not balanced on their own. After all, the game balance was not done in an attempt to make a Ftr 20 and a Wiz 20 "equal" with class features alone. The balance was done considering all aspects of the game, so I think that the concept of a "fair" duel between a Ftr 20 and a Wiz 20 using only class features and no magic items, is very boring. Attempting to balance all of the traditional D&D classes so that Xth level characters of classes Y and Z are equally balanced without magical items is got to be virtually impossible. It matters a lot how you define the terms of the duel. If the combatants start out a long distance apart with all prep spells previously cast, the Wizard is almost impossible to beat. If the two started out within arm's reach of another with no prep spells allowed before the duel begins, suddenly the advantageshifts in the direction of the fighter. I certainly would not allow the Wizard to have a half dozen prep spells up before the duel started. At that point, the duel becomes a race for the wizard. If the wizard can get enough protection spells up fast enough or can cast a successful disabler against the fighter (time stop, disintegrate, etc), the wizard will always win. If the wizard cannot, the fighter will chop him to bits. If the fighter is allowed to use nonmagical poisoned arrows, the grand duel basically boils down to an initiative contest. The fight should be over in 2 rounds, tops. It's easy to say that one Time Stop wins the fight. You will always find specific situations in role playing games where things are not balanced but remember that all spells in D&D are designed and balanced with adventuring/party use as a whole in mind, not for dueling in mind. Even in the Diablo PC game, the rules for how things work in duels are different than for regular adventuring. It has to be, otherwise balancing the game would be almost impossible. And I bet if you did manage to balance it in this way, not many people would like it better than the original. Now if what you are really getting at is how do I balance a fight between a 20th level Wizard and a single 20th level Fighter, considering the Wizard can prep and both have access to a fair amont of magic items in the context of an adventure, there are a huge number of possible choices due to the richness of D&D. For every strategy, there should always be a counterstrategy. If there isn't, something is broken anyway. Good DMs and good players accept this and roll with it, and everyone participating in the thread has proved this point. [/QUOTE]

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