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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 9652382" data-attributes="member: 9789">Every group is different, agreed.My unsolicited suggestion would be to make these baseline assumptions for a tier 4 party against a solo monster:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Initiative: all PCs are invisible, many have Alert - "monster will go first" is not assumed</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Movement: all PCs can fly and all melee have haste - there is no "out of range" and martials attack more often</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Breath weapon: all PCs resist appropriate elemental damage and the ones who will be in range will make their saves (too many bonuses) so take the 126 and make it 31</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spells: globe of invulnerability makes level 5 or lower useless, maybe higher; Fighters do not fail saves!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PCs don't miss; advantage can be safely assumed for every attack roll</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">PCs can't die; if they go down from HP loss it costs a bonus action to get them up and likely happens before their turn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reactions: monsters never have an opportunity to use them (PCs can shut these down or avoid them)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Conditions: 1 Legendary resistance will be consumed per PC turn (prone on a flying dragon is too dangerous not to save IMO), or 5-6 per PC turn for fighters or monks; monsters will need to resist incapacitated or paralyzed at least once per round; monsters will be prone most of the time unless they blow all their LRs on prone</li> </ul>The good thing is that I think you and Reynard are saying the same thing: the dragon doesn't do enough damage quickly enough to warrant its CR. The difference is that Reynard is saying the dragon will get much fewer actual turns/reactions than LAs, and I agree. That's what makes LAs useful: they will happen. It's not equivalent to say "multiply damage on a turn by X is equal to X LAs" because a turn isn't guaranteed to happen. The dragon isn't even immune to paralyze: you can't tuck "shake off conditions" into reactions because they won't get one. Any incapacitate-inducing condition means the dragon never gets a reaction.My gut reaction to your dragon in the OP is that it will get one breath weapon attack off and maybe one multiattack with disadvantage, or reverse that. It won't get a third turn. If you're playing the dragon smart, the multiattack will NOT be against the 25 AC PC who also resists blud/slash/pier and cannot be crit, but the party will do their best to make that its only option. My gut estimation for the total damage output: 31 damage to 2 or 3 PCs, and ~100 damage to a martial who has like 150 HP and healed themselves during their turn anyway. And that's generously assuming the PCs don't just Hold Monster the thing and slaughter it.To be fair: the LA version does even worse! It gets more attacks in, but they hit like wet noodles; the spells are worthless (and also fire, lol); its movement gets it eaten alive by AOs. Total damage: 31 damage to 2 or 3 PCs and ~50 to a martial who doesn't even bother healing themselves. But the PCs can't just kill it with one spell.This is what makes the "hitbox" idea so interesting: nothing gets around this, because it's a new idea.</blockquote>

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