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Message: <blockquote data-quote="wysiwyg" data-source="post: 3956599" data-attributes="member: 16985">Let's analyse this. We'll compare two classes, the figher & the wizard who take on rogue as a first level choice instead of their own classes.Fighter Lose: 4hp, +1 BAB (once off loss only). Gain: 4 times as many skill points for the rest of his career. A much broader variety of starting groups known. Also +2 Ref, Sneak attack &  trapfinding.Summary: very small loss compare to the great (continual) gain.WizardLoss: Concentration/Spellcraft. -1 to caster's level.Gain: 2 extra HP (no loss here), 4 times as many skill groups for the rest of his career. A much broader variety of starting groups known. Also +2 Ref, Sneak attack &  trapfinding.Summary: The loss again is a once off loss that can be compensated by a feat. The gain of skill points is eternal. No loss to BAB. BTW, how many feats would a wizard need to take to have the broad group range of a rogue? A lot more then the 2 needed for concentration & spellcraft.My 2 centsIf the loss is finite (once off) and the gain is infinite (continuous), a game balance has certainly been breeched. The uniqueness of the rogue is his larger pool of skill points that he has. To offer it to other classes for a small fee doesn't make much sense.Adding these 'glimpses' from 4E is insufficient without knowing how the game designers have compensated and restored game balance with other rules.A new concern about untrained skills that go up half as much as trained skills. Surely not all untrained skills should go up. Imagine a PC who never touched a violin. Why would high levels make him a better violinists than when he was a low level PC? According to these rules, not only will he be a better violinist, but also a better musician in every instrument, or any other form of art without ever touching a paint brush or even reading a book. Can you imagine a 20th level barbarian, after spending a lifetime pillaging, tomb raiding, hacking and slashing, coming back to his tribal lands and composing Bach's symphonies and writing Shakespearing sonnets <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> . Suddenly he knows how to craft magical items, survive in every imagined terrain (even if he has never set foot on a tundra, dessert, etc). These are just a few examples, but there are more.</blockquote>

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