D&D 5E ToA: summing strength scores (spoiler)

[robus]

So I’ve noticed that there’s a door in the tomb that is able to be opened if the characters doing the lifting have a total strength score in excess of 33.

This is a new kind of challenge to me and it makes me wonder two things:

1) players are not going to know that this option is available. There’s either single ability check, advantage or group. None of which meet the criteria of this challenge.

2) Why don’t all lifting strength challenges include a minimum like this? If it’s doable in one situation it should be doable in all others...

Here’s what I think they should have done: Made it an extremely hard single check DC 25 or something and also made it a DC 15 group check, indicating that working together will make it easier.

Anyone have an idea why they did it the way they did?

 

[Morrus]

1) players are not going to know that this option is available. There’s either single ability check, advantage or group. None of which meet the criteria of this challenge.

That’s a GMing issue. Players shouldn’t be selecting from a list of rules options.

The players should be immersed in the scenario. If they’re thinking in terms of meta challenge types rather than just “what are we going to do in this situation we’re immersed in?” then the GM needs to work on technique. The GM should be hiding these meta structures from the players and improvising unique applications of the core rules constantly.

At no point should a character be thinking “this option is not available in the rules”. They should just be doing what they feel is appropriate given the situation, and the GM is tasked with translating that into the rules structure.

 

[pukunui]

The minimum combined Strength score thing is old school. I think Perkins et al must have been reminded of it when they were updating the old adventures for the Yawning Portal book. Personally I like it. It's always bothered me that a strong person can fail a check to lift a gate or push open a door only to have a weaker person come along and do it. This sort of thing should be tied into the rules for how much weight a character can carry/push/pull/etc, rather than a random die roll.

 

[robus]

That’s a GMing issue. Players shouldn’t be selecting from a list of rules options.

The players should be immersed in the scenario. If they’re thinking in terms of meta challenge types rather than just “what are we going to do in this situation we’re immersed in?” then the GM needs to work on technique. The GM should be hiding these meta structures from the players and improvising unique applications of the core rules constantly.

At no point should a character be thinking “this option is not available in the rules”. They should just be doing what they feel is appropriate given the situation, and the GM is tasked with translating that into the rules structure.

Sure but no where in the rules is this kind of group effort described.

So my question to you is: how would you describe the scenario so that the players would figure out an appropriate response to the the challenge without saying their combined strength score should be greater than or equal to 33?

 

[CapnZapp]

Sure but no where in the rules is this kind of group effort described.

But it's described by the scenario!

I hope you're okay with adventures adding new rules. Right?

Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan also has this.



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[CapnZapp]

So my question to you is: how would you describe the scenario so that the players would figure out an appropriate response to the the challenge without saying their combined strength score should be greater than or equal to 33?

My counter-question is:

Since the straightforward approach* is so very obvious, what's wrong with it?

*) Namely, if characters Ann, Bob, Charlie say they push (or drag etc) you say "nothing happens, you're not quite strong enough"

Then when Bob the Bard is replaced by Dana the Destroyer with a higher Strength you say "That does it! Slowly slowly you manage to push the stone slab one agonizing inch at a time, your muscles aching from the team effort..." Or whatever feat of strength the scenario is about.

How isn't it clear "more strength is needed" is the signal you're giving them.

(If your players are comparing strength bonuses, or get confused by the lack of dice rolling, that's their problem. Eventually they will get over it. Maybe it's a magical curse that prevents the normal rules from working... ;-))





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[pukunui]

So my question to you is: how would you describe the scenario so that the players would figure out an appropriate response to the the challenge without saying their combined strength score should be greater than or equal to 33?

There are several such situations in ToA. I think one of them involves lifting a portcullis. Let's assume that the players follow standard operating procedures and have the strongest member of the party attempt to lift it first. Without asking for any kind of roll, I'd tell the player of that PC that he finds it is simply too heavy for him to lift on his own. There is room for several others to get in and help, though, and perhaps together they can get it up. Depending on which party members then step up to help, I'd tot up their Strength scores. If the total is enough, ta-da! They've lifted the portcullis. If not, then I'd tell them that they start to lift it but it's still just a little too heavy and they need maybe one more person to hop in and help.

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

Sure but no where in the rules is this kind of group effort described.

So my question to you is: how would you describe the scenario so that the players would figure out an appropriate response to the the challenge without saying their combined strength score should be greater than or equal to 33?

I see where you're coming from and agree. I actually really like the rule as I think pukunui is right about a DC being weird but I can also see how it would be difficult to convey to players the means of opening it given that it's not a core rule.

I'm probably going to do it that when a player asks to make a Strength check, simply say there's no need but if their strength score doesn't reach the threshold say something like, "You're moving it but just not quite enough to get it open,". That way there's an open hint that more help could perhaps move it. And then of course if a second person joins but the threshold isn't reached, tell them, "It's definitely getting easier to lift but still hasn't quite opened up enough to get through," which again should hint towards another character joining in to tip it over the edge.

 

[pukunui]

There may be no specific references to phrasing things this way in the PHB or DMG, but the rules do talk about when to call for a check and when not to. If the portcullis (or whatever) is simply too heavy for any one character to have any chance of moving on their own, regardless of their strength, then asking for a check is pointless.

IIRC the portcullis example even states that the thing weighs 600 lbs or something. It makes sense that you'd need multiple people to lift it. I haven't bothered to do the math myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if the combined Strength score is the amount needed to lift that weight according to the carrying capacity rules in the PHB.


EDIT: Yes, I guessed correctly. Here's the example I was thinking of: The door in area 4a of Shagambi's shrine (see page 100) "hangs heavy on its hinges". It weighs 600 lbs, and a total Strength score of 20 is needed to push it open. (There's actually a whole bunch of doors that weigh 600 lbs and need a 20 Strength to open in the adventure.)

According to the PHB (see page 176), a character can push, drag, or lift a number of pounds equal to thirty times their Strength score. 30 * 20 = 600. Viola!

Another example is the portcullises in the yuan-ti lair. They require a combined Strength of 30 to open. But it talks about how doing it this way breaks the mechanism that raises and lowers them, so I'm guessing it's not so much that they weigh 900 lbs on their own, so much as one needs to exert 900 lbs of force (or whatever) to overcome the mechanism's brakes and get the portcullis to lift without using the lever.

Personally, doing it this way makes a lot more sense to me than using a random die roll. It's one thing if the door is just stuck, but even then, there's usually not much point in actually rolling a die to see if the PCs get the door unstuck if there's no pressing danger. They can just keep throwing themselves against it until they get it open. But in the above case, where you've established how heavy something is, it makes sense that you'd go with the rules for how much weight a character can move around based on their Strength score.

I wish there were more situations like this in the official adventures (and am hopeful there will be more in future adventures).

 

[Morrus]

Sure but no where in the rules is this kind of group effort described.

So my question to you is: how would you describe the scenario so that the players would figure out an appropriate response to the the challenge without saying their combined strength score should be greater than or equal to 33?

“The door’s stuck. You try to budge it as your companions watch, but you are clearly not strong enough.”

“OK, we’ll help. All together, on a count of three....”

I would just describe the situation, and they would tell me what they were doing. I'd then (in my head) translate that into rules. I wouldn't mention strength scores or target numbers aloud unless I needed some statistical info from a player.