[ToB] Crusader

[RigaMortus2]

Just wanted to know if anyone else noticed this. It appears that the Crusader in ToB has a small "exploit" built into their recovery method for maneuvers. This "exploit" basically allows them to keep all their maneuvers active so long as they only use 2 maneuvers per round. They can basically keep using the same two maneuvers every round. Here is the relevant part of the text regarding their recovery process:

If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you.

The key words we need to know here are Readied Maneuver(s), Expended Maneuver(s), Withheld Maneuver(s), Granted Manevers, and Recover.

A Crusader starts with 5 Maneuvers known and Readied. At the beginning of combat (before the Crusader has acted) they get 2 random maneuvers Granted to them. The rest of the maneuvers (3) are Withheld. At the end of the Crusader's turn, 1 of their Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted to them (randomly determined). It would look like this:

Beginning of Combat
5 Readied/2 Granted/3 Withheld/0 Expended

Round 1) Crusader Expends 1 maneuver. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/2 Granted/2 Withheld/1 Expended

Round 2) Crusader Expends 1 maneuver. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/2 Granted/1 Withheld/2 Expended

Round 3) Crusader does not use (Expend) any maneuvers. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/3 Granted/0 Withheld/2 Expended

Round 4) Crusader does not use (Expend) any maneuvers. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted. Since he no longer has any Withheld maneuvers, his Expended Maneuvers (2 of them) become recovered and granted to him. The 3 maneuvers he has granted... Well, nothing happens with them. They remain granted under the rules.
5 Readied/5 Granted/0 Withheld/0 Expended

Round 5) Crusader Expends 2 maneuvers. At end of round, he has no more Withheld maneuvers, expended maneuvers (2) become recovered and granted to him.
5 Readied/5 Granted/0 Withheld/0 Expended

Repeat...

Just thought I would point that out. Definately a game breaker if you get 2 Crusaders that both have White Raven Tactics and are near one another. They basically get infinte turns.

 

[starwed]

Since he no longer has any Withheld maneuvers, his Expended Maneuvers (2 of them) become recovered and granted to him. The 3 maneuvers he has granted... Well, nothing happens with them. They remain granted under the rules.

I've played the crusader such that, when the expended maneuvers are granted, all others become withheld. I don't claim that it's the RAW, but it seems to be a method which allows no abuse. (Another possibility is that you only "redeal" when all your maneuvers are expended.)

Definately a game breaker if you get 2 Crusaders that both have White Raven Tactics and are near one another. They basically get infinte turns.

There are enough other ways to do this that it's clear WRT is a problem in and of itself. ^_^ And it takes long enough to reach the critical point that it won't come up in many combats. That said, it is unbalanced when you do finally reach it, so some houserule is probably in order.

 

[geosapient]

I thought that you can only use one maeuver per round. The Swordsage gets an ability at a later level that allows them to use two.

Can Crusaders do that at 1rst level?

 

[gabrion]

I thought that you can only use one maeuver per round. The Swordsage gets an ability at a later level that allows them to use two.

Can Crusaders do that at 1rst level?

I think the only thing that limits the number of maneuvers one can use in a round is the amount of time they take. So if the character in question uses a boost (swift action) and then a strike (standard or full round action) they're fine.

 

[Evil Monkey]

I thought that you can only use one maeuver per round. The Swordsage gets an ability at a later level that allows them to use two.

I think the ability you're thinking about allows swordsages to use two boost maneuvers simultaneously, which is slightly different.

 

[RigaMortus2]

There are enough other ways to do this that it's clear WRT is a problem in and of itself. ^_^ And it takes long enough to reach the critical point that it won't come up in many combats. That said, it is unbalanced when you do finally reach it, so some houserule is probably in order.

WRT isn't a problem until you add in the outside factors, namely the recovery method. I haven't seemed to come up with a way to abuse WRT too much, other than with the Crusader. Because a Warblade (for example) doesn't have enough action types to take infinite turns AND attack. The Crusader does. Of course, in both cases, you need a partner with the same build. And all it takes to reach that critical point is 3 rounds. So if a combat lasts more than 3 rounds (which is the majority of combats I have been involved in) you can unload the infinite turn combo (with full round attacks available).

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Just wanted to know if anyone else noticed this. It appears that the Crusader in ToB has a small "exploit" built into their recovery method for maneuvers. This "exploit" basically allows them to keep all their maneuvers active so long as they only use 2 maneuvers per round. They can basically keep using the same two maneuvers every round. Here is the relevant part of the text regarding their recovery process:



The key words we need to know here are Readied Maneuver(s), Expended Maneuver(s), Withheld Maneuver(s), Granted Manevers, and Recover.

A Crusader starts with 5 Maneuvers known and Readied. At the beginning of combat (before the Crusader has acted) they get 2 random maneuvers Granted to them. The rest of the maneuvers (3) are Withheld. At the end of the Crusader's turn, 1 of their Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted to them (randomly determined). It would look like this:

Beginning of Combat
5 Readied/2 Granted/3 Withheld/0 Expended

Round 1) Crusader Expends 1 maneuver. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/2 Granted/2 Withheld/1 Expended

Round 2) Crusader Expends 1 maneuver. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/2 Granted/1 Withheld/2 Expended

Round 3) Crusader does not use (Expend) any maneuvers. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/3 Granted/0 Withheld/2 Expended

Round 4) Crusader does not use (Expend) any maneuvers. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted. Since he no longer has any Withheld maneuvers, his Expended Maneuvers (2 of them) become recovered and granted to him. The 3 maneuvers he has granted... Well, nothing happens with them. They remain granted under the rules.
5 Readied/5 Granted/0 Withheld/0 Expended

Round 5) Crusader Expends 2 maneuvers. At end of round, he has no more Withheld maneuvers, expended maneuvers (2) become recovered and granted to him.
5 Readied/5 Granted/0 Withheld/0 Expended

Repeat...

Just thought I would point that out. Definately a game breaker if you get 2 Crusaders that both have White Raven Tactics and are near one another. They basically get infinte turns.

That's not how it works. When the Crusader runs out of maneuvers that can be granted (i.e. has no more withheld), you take the whole pile of maneuvers that had been readied for that encounter, expended or not, shuffle them up, and grant 2 (or 3 if high enough level). There is no such thing for the Crusader to say "I'm going to keep this maneuver readied for when XX happens later on."

Interpretting the rules the way you suggest is munchkinizing the Crusader. No wonder peeps say it's broken.

Here is how it would actually go, using your example, bolded where it is corrected:


Beginning of Combat
5 Readied/2 Granted/3 Withheld/0 Expended

Round 1) Crusader Expends 1 maneuver. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/2 Granted/2 Withheld/1 Expended

Round 2) Crusader Expends 1 maneuver. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/2 Granted/1 Withheld/2 Expended

Round 3) Crusader does not use (Expend) any maneuvers. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted.
5 Readied/3 Granted/0 Withheld/2 Expended

Round 4) Crusader does not use (Expend) any maneuvers. At end of round, one of his Withheld maneuvers becomes Granted. Since he no longer has any Withheld maneuvers, all of his readied maneuvers are recovered, all are withheld, and 2 are then randomly granted to him. 5 Readied/2 Granted/ 3 Withheld

Round 5) Crusader Expends 2 maneuvers. At end of round, one of his withheld maneuvers becomes granted.
5 Readied/1 Granted/2 Withheld/2 Expended

It really is quite simple, all you have to remember is that the granted maneuvers are randomly determined from all of his readied maneuvers, and the rest are withheld.

 

[Sithobi1]

It never says that all of his maneuvers are withheld, though, only the ones that were expended, and then recovered.

 

[dvvega]

Kmart Kommando is correct ...

from pg. 10 of BoNS ... just below table on left hand side of page.

If at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuveres, and a new pair of redadied maneuvers is granted to you. Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are withheld. At the end of your next turn, a withheld maneuver is granted to you, and the whole process of divine inspiration begins again.

You need to read the whole paragraph not the first line which allows abuse by omission (TM)

 

[Kmart Kommando]

It says, which I am reading right now and typing, quote:

If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maneuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of granted maneuvers is granted to you. Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are withheld.

Read the statement that I bolded and underlined for ease of reading. It tells you how your maneuvers are granted after the recovery. Your readied maneuvers for that encounter are completely randomized, just like the beginning of the combat. It's not rocket science.

edit: oh man, I type too slow.