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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8686966" data-attributes="member: 23751">It sounds like you didn't understand me actually <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />"Of course you can notice a creature before an action declaration is made that will start combat." Agreed and is what I said."When combat starts both sides are revealed as threats to one another, but those creatures might have been noticed before the commencement of hostilities." This is also what I said.What you don't seem to be understanding is where surprise comes in. Surprise happens when you fail to notice a threat.  According to what you just said,  you can't notice a threat until combat starts, which means both sides are automatically always surprised.According to RAW, you can notice threats before combat starts AND before any threatening action occurs.  Initiative happens AFTER surprise is determined.  The order of things is1. Determine Surprise2. Establish Positions3. Roll Initiative.For the above to be true, you must be noticing potential threats, because two groups wandering into each other are not engaging in any active threatening.  For those two groups to be able to surprise one another, they have to reacting to the potential threat of the other side.  If neither side is being stealthy, both notice the potential threats and are not surprised.  If one side is sneaking, the side that doesn't notice the potential threat is surprised.  If both are sneaking, they surprise each other.No, this is false. I made it so that the potential threat actually has to be unnoticed to get surprised............................like RAW specifies.  If the goblins are sneaking down the hallway and turn the corner into the non-sneaking PCs, and the PCs fail perception, they are surprised.  And vice versa.Until the casting, there was no stated intention to cause harm.  So the Mimic only saw a group of people.  Once the casting starts, which the Mimic has no clue is hostile, it is surprised for failing to notice a threat. According to what you have written.Nothing in RAW says that a creature that has no idea a spell is being cast will automatically know it's a hostile action/threat, let alone retroactively notice the party was a threat before the casting of the spell and not be surprised.The only way it can notice the party as a threat in time, is if it notices potential threats. Otherwise it has no chance to avoid surprise.</blockquote>

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