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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 8687187" data-attributes="member: 6787503">Again, you're misunderstanding me if that's what you think I said. That actually contradicts both of my statements you just quoted and with which you agreed. I think what you're talking about is that surprise is determined at the start of combat. Once an action is declared that requires in-combat resolution, the first thing the DM needs to do is determine if any of the participants have not noticed at least one of the participants on the other side. The actual noticing may have happened some time before that. I hope that clears things up for you.What are you trying to say here that you think I don't understand?The walls of the dungeon could be a threat, so if the PCs notice the walls, they can't be surprised by the goblins.It's bizarre that you continue to fail to understand my actual position. I trust this isn't deliberate on your part, so I'm going to go through the steps of play as I see this encounter playing out to give you a chance to catch up in your understanding of what I'm actually saying:1. The party, not trying to be stealthy as they travel, comes within sighting distance of the mimic which notices them immediately. 2. Because the mimic is trying to use its False Appearance ability, the DM determines whether or not it succeeds at remaining motionless. Of course, the DM can just decide it succeeds, but I would have it make a Dexterity (Stealth) check contested by the passive Perception scores of any members of the party who are keeping watch for hidden threats. Either way, according to the scenario described in the OP, it succeeds, and the DM describes to the players only that the party sees what looks to be an ordinary chest. 3. The players, despite any suspicions they may have about the "chest", state that the party enters the room, approaching within 15 feet (one move) of the mimic. 4. The player of the cleric states they cast toll the dead at the "chest". 5. Because combat is beginning in order to resolve the cleric's action, the DM determines who might be surprised. Because the party was not trying to be stealthy, the mimic noticed them in Step 1 and is not surprised. Because the mimic succeeded in using its False Appearance ability in Step 2, the party did not notice the mimic, and they are surprised. 6. The DM figures out where everyone is in relation to each other and to the mimic. 7. The DM calls for initiative, which is rolled by all the participants. 8. In round one, the party is surprised on their turns (see Step 5), and the mimic moves in and attacks them. 9. In round two, all the participants take their turns in initiative order, including the cleric who can now cast the spell they declared in Step 4 at the mimic.I hope that clears things up a little.</blockquote>

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