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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MoogleEmpMog" data-source="post: 3257330" data-attributes="member: 22882">I'm sorry, but a level 17 party that doesn't one-round-KO a single CR 21 opponent they can charge is doing something very, very wrong, even with just core rules.  Most level 17 characters I've seen can, if they 'alpha strike' (using up their highest level spells/abilities/magic items/short-term buffs), one-round-KO a single CR 21 opponent on their own.Generally speaking, I find high-CR outsiders fall on the weaker end of their CR tiers in a stand-up fight, although I can't speak for the Fiendish Codex versions.  Almost invariably, their best ability is greater teleport at will (GTAW), and that is, to be fair, almost impossible to deal with.  I can't imagine any of the core outsiders of CR 15 or above lasting one round against an equal or even CR-2 average party level, provided the party won initiative.  But allow them to GTAW even once and very few parties of even CR+2 or +4 can deal with them without at least a little mercy from the DM.I haven't seen a warblade or sword sage in action yet, but all the examples you've given are things I personally would be shocked to see a party fail to accomplish even once in ten tries.  Test against serious high-level threats: 4+ equal level creatures, a storm giant spellcaster abusing the non-associated class rules, core dragons, druids with NPC wealth... and the vow of poverty... CR 15+ outsiders with support (which almost all should have), brainstealer dragons (which at the levels you're testing at *will* kill any warblade, without fail, 19 out of 20 times), spellcasters played intelligently and with logical support, advanced golems (which might be the support in question), etc.</blockquote>

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