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<blockquote data-quote="gamerprinter" data-source="post: 5656309" data-attributes="member: 50895">The point I'm making is that while playing the various new classes from the Advanced Players Guide are indeed fun - they are for &quot;Advanced Players&quot;, meaning that due to flavor reasons playing an advanced player class is more of a challenge than the base classes of the Core Rulebook.&nbsp;If a player has decent system mastery and wants to play the challenge of a suboptimal class build, he ought to be an 'advanced player' who can't meet the challenge.&nbsp;Your group (at least from what you mentioned in other threads are mostly new players and new GM to Pathfinder.) So your choice to take suboptimal builds is even a greater challenge than normal, since none of those players have a great amount of system mastery.&nbsp;If one player wanted to play an Oracle say, in a group of normal classes like Wizard and human fighter, the player of the oracle if not an advanced player is going to see disadvantages with his class choice versus the more solid base class builds. The suboptimal aspects will seem more obvious.&nbsp;However, in a group where you've got kobold fighters, monks as your martial classes and oracles and witch for casters, no one player is going to outshine the rest, since all are equally suboptimal. Normally I would not recommend a starting player to take an APG class, but since the rest of the party appear not to be munchkins of any kind. What makes a given class suboptimal will hardly be noticed in a party where none have taken an overly powerful class.&nbsp;It might be the best way for a new player to learn and appreciate an advanced class, when his class choice is co-opted by other players in the group. By choosing the classes they did, I think its the best option possible for new players and advanced classes. That's all I'm saying.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="gamerprinter, post: 5656309, member: 50895"] The point I'm making is that while playing the various new classes from the Advanced Players Guide are indeed fun - they are for "Advanced Players", meaning that due to flavor reasons playing an advanced player class is more of a challenge than the base classes of the Core Rulebook. If a player has decent system mastery and wants to play the challenge of a suboptimal class build, he ought to be an 'advanced player' who can't meet the challenge. Your group (at least from what you mentioned in other threads are mostly new players and new GM to Pathfinder.) So your choice to take suboptimal builds is even a greater challenge than normal, since none of those players have a great amount of system mastery. If one player wanted to play an Oracle say, in a group of normal classes like Wizard and human fighter, the player of the oracle if not an advanced player is going to see disadvantages with his class choice versus the more solid base class builds. The suboptimal aspects will seem more obvious. However, in a group where you've got kobold fighters, monks as your martial classes and oracles and witch for casters, no one player is going to outshine the rest, since all are equally suboptimal. Normally I would not recommend a starting player to take an APG class, but since the rest of the party appear not to be munchkins of any kind. What makes a given class suboptimal will hardly be noticed in a party where none have taken an overly powerful class. It might be the best way for a new player to learn and appreciate an advanced class, when his class choice is co-opted by other players in the group. By choosing the classes they did, I think its the best option possible for new players and advanced classes. That's all I'm saying. [/QUOTE]

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