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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6056917" data-attributes="member: 42582">To the best of my knowledge, not as a result of dealing with infernal powers.I think there's a difference between brooding about orcs - which are an external threat to a dwarf or elf - and brooding about the failings of your own people that caused your downfall. A closer example in mainstream fantasy might be the sons of Feanor Maedhros and Maglor.This is more-or-less how it played out in my game, yes.The PCs have dealt with the duergar twice - once earlier in the campaign to redeem some slaves that the duergar had purchased from a hobgoblin slaving ring, and then in the last few sessions - impressed by the PCs' prowess, and also the ability of the PC invoker to wield the Sceptre of Law (= Rod of Seven Parts), of which the duergar themselves possess one piece, the duergar have given the PCs shelter in their hold. The tiefling and the invoker (who serves, among other gods, Bane and Erathis) get on well with the duergar, though the tiefling also has a certain distance from them due to his sense that they don't understand their own tragic situation.The party also has a dwarf PC - a fighter-cleric of Moradin - as well as the drow and an elf ranger-cleric, and the relationship to the duergar of the dwarf (who has to tolerate constant jibes at the inadequacy of Moradin as a protector of the dwarves) and the chaos drow (who is, rightly, seen as a threat to the order that the duergar uphold) is very different from that of the tiefling and invoker.No doubt interesting brooding PCs who are dwarves, elves and humans can be created - and I've GMed some of them over the years! - but the tiefling origin story introduces a distinctive thematic element. Maybe it would, but it would be a different PC. For example, the elf you describe probably wouldn't be an exile. S/he wouldn't have to be a member of a secret society, because s/he could probably be open about his/her goals. And there would not be the same relationship with Lolth and the Abyss.The bit about heresy is certainly right. It fits with the general persona of the PC (he is also the party Bluff-bot, and notorious for dropping his Cloud of Darkness in combat without full regard to the welfare of his fellow party members).The relationship to the Elemental Chaos is still being explored. The PC certainly wants its power, but is also interested in the idea and importance of change and transformation. I think it is likely that, downstream in the campaign, there may be conflicts between this PC and the invoker of Erathis.Huh? All races in 4e have access to racial abilities. And tieflings are generally regarded as one of the weaker racial choices, as best I have a sense of the optimisation boards.As I've indicated, you're pretty much on target with your diagnoses. I've never claimed that the thematic material in my game is particularly surprising or unpredictable! - I follow the standard fantasy tropes pretty closely - but I can't see any connection to munckinism. These are completely legitimate PCs that are interesting in play. And interesting in play is my number-one criterion for a well-built PC.There is nothing particularly sucky about 4e half-elves, but the PC was a feylock, which is a hard class to play well. Hence at 3rd level, when the PC died, the player brought in the drow sorcerer in its place.I think you may have missed [MENTION=6680305]technoextreme[/MENTION]'s point, which was that Klingons aren't a sci-fi archetype at all. They are a fantasy archetype - the brutal but honourable warrior culture - with the thinnest veneer of sci-fi painted over them. (Other examples of this sort of sci-fi veneer over fantasy include the Fremen in Dune, the Hawkmen in Flash Gordon, the Jedi in Star Wars and Cthulhu in the HPL short story.)</blockquote>

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