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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6056964" data-attributes="member: 27160"><p>Wait - so vampires aren't a fantasy archetype, either, because villagers exhumed and staked/burned the hearts of corpses they thought were cursing their community into the mid-20th century?</p><p></p><p>Much of fantasy has been thought "real" at some time or another. Oftentimes there have even been explanations that turned out to be surprisingly close to what was believed. If we exclude all that from our fantasy, I don't think we'll have much left...</p><p></p><p>Draconians in (late) 2e Forgotten Realms, tieflings in 2e Planescape (and 3e FR as well as Planescape) and Warforged in 3.5e Eberron would seem to comprehensively refute your assertion, here. Unless you have been living in an alternative universe where those things never happened?</p><p></p><p>And Klingons are orcs with a refluff and high technology.</p><p></p><p>And yet, through the history of D&D, I see only one game world - maybe two if you count FR which is sort-of "Tolkien with the fantasy dial turned to 11" - that were really anything vaguely like Middle Earth. And, even then, Greyhawk had shades of MAR Barker in it with the "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" stuff.</p><p></p><p>And you don't see the story possibilities inherent in challenging that in play??</p><p></p><p>The flaw in your argument appears to be that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s game is run using 4E D&D. In 4E, all PC races have racial powers, and they are pretty well balanced against one-another. Primarily, I think this stems from the fact that they are all "core" races - i.e. they are all seriously intended to be played as PC <em>options</em>.</p><p></p><p>Finagling to get a specific race in 4E to get "kewl powerz" would be pointless; you would get powers no more or less powerful than those gained by any other character. If you have thematic or aesthetic reasons to want to have specific powers, however, for "story" purposes, then desiring a specific race would make perfect sense. So would wanting a specific race whose powers and abilities fitted well with the overall character you were intending to develop. I see nothing wrong with either of these motivations.</p><p></p><p>A final word on "munchkinism": so, the player wants a capable and powerful character - what's wrong with that? There is a problem letting one player have a more powerful character than the other players have (although even that can work and be fun for some specific circumstances), but I see nothing whatever wrong with allowing players to play powerful, capable characters thatn can control their environment to a good degree. So, is it the idea that a player wants to have a more powerful character than anyone else that is the problem with "munchkinism", or merely the idea that player characters should be capable and effective individuals? If it is the first, I suggest that the answer is simply good game balance accross <strong><em>all</em></strong> the options. If it is the second, then I suggest that it isn't a problem at all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6056964, member: 27160"] Wait - so vampires aren't a fantasy archetype, either, because villagers exhumed and staked/burned the hearts of corpses they thought were cursing their community into the mid-20th century? Much of fantasy has been thought "real" at some time or another. Oftentimes there have even been explanations that turned out to be surprisingly close to what was believed. If we exclude all that from our fantasy, I don't think we'll have much left... Draconians in (late) 2e Forgotten Realms, tieflings in 2e Planescape (and 3e FR as well as Planescape) and Warforged in 3.5e Eberron would seem to comprehensively refute your assertion, here. Unless you have been living in an alternative universe where those things never happened? And Klingons are orcs with a refluff and high technology. And yet, through the history of D&D, I see only one game world - maybe two if you count FR which is sort-of "Tolkien with the fantasy dial turned to 11" - that were really anything vaguely like Middle Earth. And, even then, Greyhawk had shades of MAR Barker in it with the "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks" stuff. And you don't see the story possibilities inherent in challenging that in play?? The flaw in your argument appears to be that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s game is run using 4E D&D. In 4E, all PC races have racial powers, and they are pretty well balanced against one-another. Primarily, I think this stems from the fact that they are all "core" races - i.e. they are all seriously intended to be played as PC [I]options[/I]. Finagling to get a specific race in 4E to get "kewl powerz" would be pointless; you would get powers no more or less powerful than those gained by any other character. If you have thematic or aesthetic reasons to want to have specific powers, however, for "story" purposes, then desiring a specific race would make perfect sense. So would wanting a specific race whose powers and abilities fitted well with the overall character you were intending to develop. I see nothing wrong with either of these motivations. A final word on "munchkinism": so, the player wants a capable and powerful character - what's wrong with that? There is a problem letting one player have a more powerful character than the other players have (although even that can work and be fun for some specific circumstances), but I see nothing whatever wrong with allowing players to play powerful, capable characters thatn can control their environment to a good degree. So, is it the idea that a player wants to have a more powerful character than anyone else that is the problem with "munchkinism", or merely the idea that player characters should be capable and effective individuals? If it is the first, I suggest that the answer is simply good game balance accross [B][I]all[/I][/B] the options. If it is the second, then I suggest that it isn't a problem at all. [/QUOTE]
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